# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 773
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2019, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15443 "2019-10-15T16:46:23Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > I think it’s a neighborhood I wouldn’t want to live in now. It’s a neighborhood where most of you, despite the virtue signalling, wouldn’t be caught dead in now, if you had any choice at all. I’ve lived in neighborhoods like that in the past, and gotten my stuff stolen while I lived there, contra **Alessan** ’s observation that working class people don’t have time to steal, because they’re at work. Maybe they don’t, but their piece of shit kids and relatives do. > > More importantly, it’s a neighborhood that, to a hypothetical FW cop, is among the neighborhoods where you might find a drug house where drug manufacturing is going on. Which—to them—might be an explanation for why the door is open when its 45 degrees outside, yet there are people milling around inside. \ Ok…. Thanks for the reply; it was enlightening. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2019, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15444 "2019-10-15T16:49:02Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > Given that, wouldn’t manslaughter or Crim Neg Homicidebe a more appropriate charge? The recklessness or negligence being not following correct procedure? The cop intentionally pulled the trigger. He intended to kill or seriously wound. The death was not an accident caused by recklessness or negligence. Murder is the correct charge. There has been discussion of this aspect of Texas law in the Guyger threads. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2019, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15445 "2019-10-15T17:37:51Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > Given that, wouldn’t manslaughter or Crim Neg Homicidebe a more appropriate charge? The recklessness or negligence being not following correct procedure? The recklessness of placing oneself in a bad situation, however, is a separate act from the act of killing Jefferson, which was intentional. This is why Texas’s law against what it called "“murder” has such a wide range of possible sentences; it’s because the state has nothing called “second degree murder,” is very restrictive on what can be escalated to “Capital murder,” and pushes all intentional homicide up from what it calls “manslaughter” into “murder.” It’s so the courts can sentence appropriately for crimes that clearly deserve different punishments. > [@Typo Negative](#): > > Unless new facts come to light, I have to assume that the officer believed (wrongly) that he was taking correct action as a police officer. He had no intent to commit a crime. Neither did Amber Guyger, but she was convicted, and entirely correctly. It’s not whether you intend to commit a crime, but whether you intend to commit an act that is a crime. Dean meant to kill Jefferson, which in Texas is an act that violates 19.02 of the Texas Penal Code, “Murder.” The only thing that can save him is if he can demonstrate his decision to kill Jefferson was one of the legal exceptions to the law against murder. It is likely Dean will claim self defense: [https://codes.findlaw.com/tx/penal-code/penal-sect-9-31.html](https://codes.findlaw.com/tx/penal-code/penal-sect-9-31.html) This will be, based on the body cam, a hard case to make. However, we don’t know if Jefferson was pointing a gun at him. If she was that would still be an awful tragedy, because Dean acted stupidly to put them in that position, but it might get him off. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2019, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15446 "2019-10-15T17:40:28Z")
If all we do is prosecute the officer - which we probably should in this case - then we’re wasting our time. I want people above that guy fired. Police training exists for a reason. He overreacted because he got piss poor training. And if he got great training and was sloppy with his implementation, then they need better oversight. People other than the individual officers need to have a stake in what happens when officers are out on the street. And they need to pay consequences. I also suspect that police culture is to blame. Officers probably see a lot of things that are never addressed. Things that aren’t by the book, but “Screw it, that’s just the way we do things 'round here.” Things that are probably really alarming but aren’t really problems – until they turn out to be problems. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2019, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15447 "2019-10-15T17:54:25Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I have yet to see or watch a story on this and hear anything about her neighborhood,let alone describing it as “bad”. Where did you come across this characterization? There are black people living in it, some of them even own guns, and one of them was shot by the police. How could it not be a bad neighborhood? Didn’t you see the pic the police released (and have sense apologized for) with everything but a firearm blurred out? ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2019, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15448 "2019-10-15T17:57:31Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > Unless new facts come to light, I have to assume that the officer believed (wrongly) that he was taking correct action as a police officer. He had no intent to commit a crime. I think that neither officer followed correct procedure and that he fired his weapon out of cowardice, not malice. Maybe one of our law-talking guys can correct me, but that seems like manslaughter, not murder. He straight up ended the life of a human being who was in her own home doing nothing wrong while under color of law while abusing the authority given to him by the state. If that doesn’t fucking qualify as murder, what does? He clearly had intent to commit a crime, he chose to pull out a gun and issue commands to someone to not move, then shoot them. Are you asserting that he was being mind controlled when he chose to sneak up to her house, pull a gun on her, shout commands, and pull the trigger? If not, then it was goddamn well intentional, and trying to claim that it was somehow an accident is disgusting apologia for a murderous cop. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2019, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15449 "2019-10-15T18:00:56Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > I agree with most of this. Given the late hour, the bad neighborhood, and the temperature in Fort Worth at that hour (~45 degrees), a house with all its front door wide open, I am guessing, suggested to the arriving police that it was either a burglary, or the inhabitants were cooking a batch of drugs and were trying to vent away the smell. It’s amazing the non-crimes that cops come up with to justify murdering people, especially minorities. Failure to close a door in weather that is chilly results in shot in your own living room in this case. Having a problem with the lock on your door in Dallas results in being shot on your own sofa. I think having the door open suggests that someone either forgot to close the door or chose to leave it open, which I’ve done myself on numerous occasions. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2019, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15450 "2019-10-15T18:10:32Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > It is likely Dean will claim self defense: > > [https://codes.findlaw.com/tx/penal-code/penal-sect-9-31.html](https://codes.findlaw.com/tx/penal-code/penal-sect-9-31.html) > > **This will be, based on the body cam, a hard case to make.** However, we don’t know if Jefferson was pointing a gun at him. If she was that would still be an awful tragedy, because Dean acted stupidly to put them in that position, but it might get him off. Emphasis mine. It’s a bit chilling to consider what the story would have been, in this case, if the cop in question had not been wearing a bodycam. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2019, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15451 "2019-10-15T18:48:05Z")
Oh, in that case there’d be no charge. Dean could have said he’d given her ten seconds to answer and she’d threatened to kill him and pointed something that “looked like a gun” at him. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2019, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15452 "2019-10-15T19:03:06Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > Unless new facts come to light, I have to assume that the officer believed (wrongly) that he was taking correct action as a police officer. He had no intent to commit a crime. I think that neither officer followed correct procedure and that he fired his weapon out of cowardice, not malice. Maybe one of our law-talking guys can correct me, but that seems like manslaughter, not murder. I can get myself into the frame of mind to agree with this. However, you (and I) look at this through the eyes of regular folks. Cops is not regular folks. They are, ostensibly, trained to manage deadly force and to navigate stressful & sketchy situations. Add to that, the cops were playing offense and had the upper hand in every stage of this encounter. All this to say, if we are going to authorize individuals to violate privacy, physically restrain, and in some cases kill citizens, then their behavior needs to be held to a higher than normal standard. I think it depends on venue, but there are degrees of murder and it all comes down to what the jury believes your intent was. If you jump in your police cruiser and deliberately stalk and assassinate someone, that’s pretty much going to be 1st degree murder. If you meant to scare or hurts someone, or just wanted to do something entirely else but someone got killed in the process, that’s generally manslaughter. If you’re scared shitless staring down the sights of your sidearm at someone who doesn’t know you’re there, and you pull the trigger, it’s pretty hard to argue you pulled the trigger and didn’t mean to end a life. You knowingly ended a life, and you did it on purpose, and you had no reason to believe your life was in danger and that egress was not an option. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2019, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15453 "2019-10-15T19:49:07Z")
British family, on vacation to Canada with their 3 month old baby accidentally wander down an unmarked road into the US and [get apprehended by ICE](https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/10/15/eileen-connors-british-family-ice-vacation-detention/). Despite actually having visas that would allow them to enter the US, they are shipped off to a Philadelphia “baby jail” where they’ve been held for multiple days now. This is following the case of a [French jogger](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/06/23/a-jogger-accidentally-crossed-into-the-u-s-from-canada-and-was-detained-for-two-weeks/) who accidentally entered jogged too far down a beach and was detained for two weeks in an ICE facility. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2019, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15454 "2019-10-15T20:04:21Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > T > > This will be, based on the body cam, a hard case to make. However, we don’t know if Jefferson was pointing a gun at him. If she was that would still be an awful tragedy, because Dean acted stupidly to put them in that position, but it might get him off. [Murder warrant for Fort Worth officer says woman he killed was holding gun in her home](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/murder-warrant-for-fort-worth-officer-says-woman-he-killed-was-holding-gun-in-her-home/ar-AAIP4Z5?li=BBnb7Kz) > [@](#): > > The murder arrest warrant for a white officer who shot and killed a black woman on Saturday says that the victim was holding a gun after she heard noises outside her window. > [@](#): > > A witness, the woman’s 8-year-old nephew, told a police investigator that after Atatiana Jefferson heard noises outside her window and thought there might be a prowler outside, she reached into her purse, grabbed a handgun and pointed it toward the window, the warrant said. Well, it just got muddier. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2019, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15455 "2019-10-15T20:07:02Z")
> [@](#): > > British family, on vacation to Canada with their 3 month old baby accidentally wander down an unmarked road into the US and get apprehended by ICE. Despite actually having visas that would allow them to enter the US, they are shipped off to a Philadelphia “baby jail” where they’ve been held for multiple days now. > > This is following the case of a French jogger who accidentally entered jogged too far down a beach and was detained for two weeks in an ICE facility From the second story: “processed her as an expedited removal” What could be more expedited than just making her turn around and go back into Canada? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2019, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15456 "2019-10-15T21:37:46Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > [Murder warrant for Fort Worth officer says woman he killed was holding gun in her home](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/murder-warrant-for-fort-worth-officer-says-woman-he-killed-was-holding-gun-in-her-home/ar-AAIP4Z5?li=BBnb7Kz) > > Well, it just got muddier. Muddier in that the defense will cry that the cop was feeling threatened. They may even get off. Not muddy at all in that this woman’s death is entirely that cop’s fault. Unless it is now illegal to arm yourself to deal with a threat that you perceive from outside, which puts about half the “Positive Gun Stories” in hot water. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2019, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15457 "2019-10-15T21:41:42Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > From the second story: “processed her as an expedited removal” > > What could be more expedited than just making her turn around and go back into Canada? How did they know that she wasn’t a terrorist? ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2019, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15458 "2019-10-15T22:19:33Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > Well, it just got muddier. No it didn’t. She had no way of knowing who or where her prowler was, she only knew she was in her own home and had a right to defend herself. The cop knew he was a cop, he knew he was creeping around in someone’s yard, knew HE was the one behaving suspiciously, chose not to introduce himself, and slaughtered her like a dog with no reason to suspect she was anything apart from a person in a house. Innocent until proven guilty. But he presumed she was guilty. Fuck him in the heart. ---
**Author:** ![Morgyn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morgyn/32/3041_2.png) [@Morgyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgyn)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2019, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15459 "2019-10-15T22:33:57Z")
Texas is one of the states with “strong” Stand Your Ground/Castle Doctrine laws. She had no way to know who was prowling around outside her home, which she had a right to defend under the state’s laws. Apparently, the lawmakers didn’t think through what might happen when someone is trying to defend themselves from an unidentified cop. ---
**Author:** ![Isosleepy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/isosleepy/32/479_2.png) [@Isosleepy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isosleepy)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2019, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15460 "2019-10-15T23:27:26Z")
The woman is not going to be on trial here, the legality of her holding the gun is not at issue. (Were it, though, I imagine it’d be a quick acquittal). At stake is how justified the cop was in shooting her, and if found he wasn’t, what the consequences are. I believe he will be found to have acted contra his training and established procedures. To me, the logical consequences of killing someone through gross incompetence or violation of procedure should lead to a conviction of the Texas equivalent of manslaughter. Let’s hope DA, grand jury and jury agree. Of course the real remedy, a complete overhaul of the concept that any action ensuring the officer’s safety is warranted, no matter the cost or reasonableness of the action, will still not be even contemplated. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15461 "2019-10-16T13:00:57Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > How did they know that she wasn’t a terrorist? Far be it from me to defend ICE, but from the linked story: > [@](#): > > U.S. authorities disputed the family’s version of events, saying they were spotted via video surveillance “slowly and deliberately driving through a ditch onto Boundary Road in Lynden, Washington” between parallel roadways on the U.S. and Canadian sides. The roads are not connected by cross streets, and the only legal way to traverse between the countries is at staffed border stations throughout the region. > AD > > In a statement, CBP said U.S. agents also determined that two of the family members had applied for travel authorization to visit the United States and were denied. A senior CBP official said the Connorses applied for visa waivers last year, and it was not immediately clear why they were rejected. The official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe the case, said the family — four adults and three small children — were in possession of $16,000 in cash at the time of their arrest. ICE could of course be lying (they’ve been known to do that), but if you accept their version of the events, then detention is at least reasonable. I do wonder when the determination of denied authorization was made - it seems unlikely that that is the sort of info that would come back quickly on any sort of radio check on somebody. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2019, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15462 "2019-10-16T13:57:21Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > Far be it from me to defend ICE, but from the linked story: > > > [@](#): > > > > U.S. authorities disputed the family’s version of events, saying they were spotted via video surveillance “slowly and deliberately driving through a ditch onto Boundary Road in Lynden, Washington” between parallel roadways on the U.S. and Canadian sides. The roads are not connected by cross streets, and the only legal way to traverse between the countries is at staffed border stations throughout the region. > > ICE could of course be lying (they’ve been known to do that), but if you accept their version of the events, then detention is at least reasonable. I do wonder when the determination of denied authorization was made - it seems unlikely that that is the sort of info that would come back quickly on any sort of radio check on somebody. Yeah, if the ICE description of their actions is accurate, it definitely sounds like they were intentionally trying to cross the border without authorization. I lived in Vancouver for a couple of years, and used to make occasional trips down into the US. I’ve driven along those border roads in the Lynden area, and my main purpose in doing so was just to see what the border looked like. It really was quite interesting, seeing two parallel roads, one in Canada and one in the United States, separated by nothing more than a shallow drainage ditch. The thing is, unless these people had friends out in that part of the British Columbia border area with the US, there’s really not much of a reason for a tourist to go out there. It’s just unremarkable flat land, with farms. When I drove out there, it was with the express intention of checking out the border. The idea that they were out there and accidentally drove into the United States is a little difficult to believe, especially in the era of GPS and Google Maps. There are also signs in the area, or at least there used to be, telling you that you’re approaching the border. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=772) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=774)