# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 791
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2020, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15803 "2020-05-13T16:13:28Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > It seems strange to me that in situations like this, the police don’t immediately release body-cam footage showing that the police did, in fact, announce their presence. Of course, it was night and the victims were in bed and asleep, so even if they knocked and announced before breaking in, the residents quite likely didn’t hear them. Why was this happening in the middle of the night anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2020, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15804 "2020-05-13T21:51:34Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > Why was this happening in the middle of the night anyway? Because shooting sleeping families is easier than shooting sitting ducks. ---
**Author:** ![epbrown01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@epbrown01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown01)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15805 "2020-05-14T04:04:06Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > It seems strange to me that in situations like this, the police don’t immediately release body-cam footage showing that the police did, in fact, announce their presence. The officers were in plain clothes, so no cameras. But yeah, this was a clusterfuck in the making - if you’ve decided to deliver the warrant at 3 a.m. to catch your assailant off-guard, you have to also allow for the fact that the people in the completely dark house are asleep and don’t hear you announcing yourself. That even sets aside the fact that it was the wrong house, and the person the warrant was for was already in police custody. Screw-ups happen, but lethal screw-ups that have no consequences can’t be allowed. At the very least, these guys should no longer be cops, in the same way a doctor who kills a patient with a screw-up can’t practice any more. As far as I can tell, the only 2 times an active-duty police officer has been successfully prosecuted for killing a citizen by mistake were Amber Guyger, and Mohamed Noor (that incident in Minnesota 2 years ago). ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15806 "2020-05-14T04:09:05Z")
> [@epbrown01](#): > > The officers were in plain clothes, so no cameras. But yeah, this was a clusterfuck in the making - if you’ve decided to deliver the warrant at 3 a.m. to catch your assailant off-guard, you have to also allow for the fact that the people in the completely dark house are asleep and don’t hear you announcing yourself. That even sets aside the fact that it was the wrong house, and the person the warrant was for was already in police custody. > > Screw-ups happen, but lethal screw-ups that have no consequences can’t be allowed. At the very least, these guys should no longer be cops, in the same way a doctor who kills a patient with a screw-up can’t practice any more. > > As far as I can tell, the only 2 times an active-duty police officer has been successfully prosecuted for killing a citizen by mistake were Amber Guyger, and Mohamed Noor (that incident in Minnesota 2 years ago). Guyger was offduty when she murdered Botham Jean. > **[Murder of Botham Jean](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Botham_Jean)** > > On the night of September 6, 2018, 26-year-old accountant Botham Jean was murdered in Dallas, Texas by off-duty Dallas Police Department patrol officer Amber Guyger, who entered Jean's apartment and fatally shot him. Guyger, who said that she had entered Jean's apartment believing it was her own and believed Jean to be a burglar, was initially charged with manslaughter. The absence of a murder charge led to protests and accusations of racial bias because Jean—an unarmed black man—was killed Bot... > [@](#): > > On September 6, 2018, off-duty Dallas Police Department patrol officer Amber Guyger entered the Dallas, Texas, apartment of Botham Jean and fatally shot him. Guyger said that she had entered the apartment believing it was her own and that she shot Jean believing he was a burglar. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15807 "2020-05-14T05:57:48Z")
> [@epbrown01](#): > > The officers were in plain clothes, so no cameras. Wait, so they’re serving a warrant, in the middle of the night, while being completely unidentifiable as ACTUALLY police? And no one has lost their jobs over this shit? I just can’t imagine why people think police are incompetent jackasses with no accountability :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15808 "2020-05-14T11:55:40Z")
> [@epbrown01](#): > > Screw-ups happen, but lethal screw-ups that have no consequences can’t be allowed. At the very least, these guys should no longer be cops, in the same way a doctor who kills a patient with a screw-up can’t practice any more. Actually, a majority of doctors who commit medical malpractice or make a significant error that kills a patient don’t lose their license to practice medicine. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15809 "2020-05-14T12:12:30Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > It seems strange to me that in situations like this, the police don’t immediately release body-cam footage showing that the police did, in fact, announce their presence. > [@Folacin](#): > > Of course, it was night and the victims were in bed and asleep, so even if they knocked and announced before breaking in, the residents quite likely didn’t hear them. > > Why was this happening in the middle of the night anyway? > [@epbrown01](#): > > The officers were in plain clothes, so no cameras. But yeah, this was a clusterfuck in the making - if you’ve decided to deliver the warrant at 3 a.m. to catch your assailant off-guard, you have to also allow for the fact that the people in the completely dark house are asleep and don’t hear you announcing yourself. That even sets aside the fact that it was the wrong house, and the person the warrant was for was already in police custody. A couple of the stories that I’ve read on this incident, [including this one](https://www.npr.org/2020/05/13/855705278/sleeping-while-black-louisville-police-kill-unarmed-black-woman), has the victim’s family and lawyer asserting that the police had a “no-knock” warrant. It will be very interesting if this is true, because surely this would suggest that, contrary to their own claims, the police did NOT announce themselves before they broke into the house. The very purpose of a no-knock warrant is precisely to relieve police of the responsibility to announce themselves so they can maintain a greater element of surprise in entering the house. If it does turn out that it was a no-knock warrant, the police are going to have a hard time convincing the court that they announced themselves, and it will be much easier for the guy in the apartment to argue that he fired his initial shots in self-defense against an unknown intruder. More generally, I think no-knock warrants are granted far too often. They should be a measure of absolute last resort, against suspects whom you have good reason to suspect will be likely to fire on police officers. The main reason that police want these types of warrants is that they make it harder for drug suspects to flush the evidence, but to be honest, if that happens in a few cases then it will be a small price to pay for fewer dead civilians. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15810 "2020-05-14T16:26:30Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Actually, a majority of doctors who commit medical malpractice or make a significant error that kills a patient don’t lose their license to practice medicine. The should if they performed a no-knock surgery. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15811 "2020-05-14T17:18:38Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > The should if they performed a no-knock surgery. This is funnier than it should be. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15812 "2020-05-14T18:36:01Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > The should if they performed a no-knock surgery. Why are you picking on surgeons who operate to fix genu valgum? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2020, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15813 "2020-05-14T20:11:16Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Why are you picking on surgeons who operate to fix genu valgum? If your means of locomotion starts having a knocking problem, just increase your octane rating. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2020, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15814 "2020-05-22T06:35:59Z")
Interestingly, the Louisville Chief of Police has said that he’s retiring as of June 1 in the aftermath of the Breonna Taylor shooting. And the FBI has opened an investigation into the shooting, as well. > **[The FBI has opened an investigation into the shooting death of Kentucky EMT...](https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/21/us/breonna-taylor-death-police-changes-trnd/index.html)** > > The FBI has opened an investigation into the shooting death of Breonna Taylor, an EMT who was killed after officers forced their way inside her home. > **[LMPD Chief Steve Conrad announces retirement amid controversy](https://www.wlky.com/article/lmpd-chief-steve-conrad-announces-hes-retiring-in-june/32631634)** > > His retirement comes in the wake of an investigation into the shooting death of Breonna Taylor, which happened during an LMPD narcotics raid back in March. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2020, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15815 "2020-05-22T07:05:38Z")
Another new development: The guy who made the video of the McMichael Klan murdering Arbery has been arrested and charged with Felony Murder among other crimes. (Is there another thread nearby where this is already being discussed?) ETA: Link to article in New York Times: [Man Who Filmed Ahmaud Arbery’s Death Is Charged With Murder](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/21/us/william-bryan-arrest-ahmaud-arbery.html), May 21, 2020. ---
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2020, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15816 "2020-05-22T11:40:09Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Another new development: The guy who made the video of the McMichael Klan murdering Arbery has been arrested and charged with Felony Murder among other crimes. (Is there another thread nearby where this is already being discussed?) > > ETA: Link to article in New York Times: > [Man Who Filmed Ahmaud Arbery’s Death Is Charged With Murder](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/21/us/william-bryan-arrest-ahmaud-arbery.html), May 21, 2020. I don’t undersyand this arrest. I don’t see how any jury would convict the person cideotaping the event for murder or any serious charge. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2020, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15817 "2020-05-22T12:07:08Z")
> [@Orwell](#): > > I don’t undersyand this arrest. I don’t see how any jury would convict the person cideotaping the event for murder or any serious charge. He was along for the ride (a co-conspirator) thus he shares in the crime. ---
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2020, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15818 "2020-05-22T12:12:36Z")
* * * > [@kayaker](#): > > He was along for the ride (a co-conspirator) thus he shares in the crime. I guess it depends on the facts of the case. Seems like prosecutorial over-reach no matter what. My guess is that the prosecuter is using this as leverage to make the filming guy cooperate and testify. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2020, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15819 "2020-05-22T12:36:03Z")
> [@Wikipedia](#): > > The rule of felony murder is a legal doctrine in some common law jurisdictions that broadens the crime of murder: when an offender kills in the commission of a dangerous or enumerated crime, the offender, and also the offender’s accomplices or co-conspirators, may be found guilty of murder. Seems pretty clear. But, yeah, I’m sure this will encourage his cooperation. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2020, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15820 "2020-05-22T13:04:17Z")
> [@Orwell](#): > > * * * > > I guess it depends on the facts of the case. Seems like prosecutorial over-reach no matter what. My guess is that the prosecuter is using this as leverage to make the filming guy cooperate and testify. …[watch the NYT video](https://www.nytimes.com/video/us/100000007142853/ahmaud-arbery-video-911-georgia.html?smid=pl-share). Bryan wasn’t just an observer. He was part of the chase: which lasted four minutes. The first time McMichael tries to block Arbery Arbery turns around and runs in the opposite direction: **Bryan tries to block his retreat**. Bryan then **takes the lead in the pursuit** before something happens (we don’t know what that is yet.), Arbery turns around again, is chased by Bryan who herds Arbery into the roadblock, which Arbery tries to evade and gets shot. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2020, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15821 "2020-05-22T13:13:08Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > He was along for the ride (a co-conspirator) thus he shares in the crime. Yep. Apparently (per Atlanta local news this morning) there’s more video the public hasn’t seen, the chase of Arbery lasted for over 4 minutes during which Mr. Bryan (the video taker) helped to block Arbery’s exit from the neighborhood and corral him toward the McMichaels. He’s therefore charged with murder and attempted false imprisonment. ---
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2020, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15822 "2020-05-22T13:23:28Z")
That makes more sense, then. I didn’t watch the video. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=790) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=792)