# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 793
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2020, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15843 "2020-05-27T13:22:31Z")
> [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](#): > > Because the cause of death seems to be a drug overdose, not something that was caused by the cop. OK, asshole, you need to fucking put up or retract your assertion. I’ve just read 15 different stories about the killing of George Floyd, from local organizations like the Minneapolis Star Tribune and WCCO Minnesota through to national media outlets like the Washington Post, the New York Times, and the major news networks, and not one of them mention a drug overdose as a factor in Floyd’s death. I’ve also done a more general news search for “george floyd overdose” and got nothing. Where’s your evidence? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2020, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15844 "2020-05-27T13:43:25Z")
Regarding the George Floyd murder (whether they end up convicted or not, that’s what happened), it will be interesting to see how this plays out. It’s already received massive national attention from politicians, actors, professional sports figures, and major news outlets, and led to protests in Minneapolis. There is some very interesting comparative imagery being deployed in all of this. One is contrasting the actions of Minneapolis cops, firing tear gas last night at protests that include young children, with cops in places like Michigan who were happy to allow large crowds of armed white protestors march all over the place without hindering them in the slightest. There’s also [this image](https://www.instagram.com/p/CAq3fpCgyve/?utm_source=ig_embed) that’s doing the rounds on Twitter and Instagram, and has been picked up by a bunch of news outlets, contrasting one type of kneeling with another. It’s pretty powerful stuff. Of course, we had video of Eric Garner getting choked to death as well, using a chokehold banned by the NYPD, and that still didn’t lead to an indictment, and the officer wasn’t even fired until five years after Garner’s death. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2020, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15845 "2020-05-27T15:21:26Z")
> [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](#): > > Because the cause of death seems to be a drug overdose, not something that was caused by the cop. This really makes no sense. If the cause of death is not related to anything the officers did, then why where they fired? If they were fired for doing something that led to Floyds’ death then why have they not been charged? When blacks are involved they get arrested and the fact sort out later. When whites are involved “they wanted to make an informed decision on this situation” - like the cop with the mob in the wrong house in NC. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2020, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15846 "2020-05-28T12:40:25Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > It seems strange to me that in situations like this, the police don’t immediately release body-cam footage showing that the police did, in fact, announce their presence. > [@Slash1972](#): > > Probably not, but don’t they realize how bad that looks after all these incidents? Not as bad as body cam imagery proving them to be liars would made them look. Truth isn’t a defense when the truth is that they’re guilty. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2020, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15847 "2020-05-28T13:45:58Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Not as bad as body cam imagery proving them to be liars would made them look. Truth isn’t a defense when the truth is that they’re guilty. Good point. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2020, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15848 "2020-05-28T16:21:05Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Not as bad as body cam imagery proving them to be liars would made them look. Truth isn’t a defense when the truth is that they’re guilty. One of my favorite SNL memories is from when Kermit Washington punched Rudy Tomjanovich (and nearly killed him). Probably on Weekend Update, Garrett Morris comes on to defend him, and goes to the tape. IIRC correctly, he kept showing different angles to try and find one where Rudy looked like the aggressor. He finally fell back on “I’m sure he deserved it”. Can’t find it as a clip online, more’s the pity. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Gay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@Enola\_Gay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Gay)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2020, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15849 "2020-05-28T17:55:51Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > This really makes no sense. If the cause of death is not related to anything the officers did, then why where they fired? If they were fired for doing something that led to Floyds’ death then why have they not been charged? > . I presume they will wait for the autopsy report to be released, then send it to the grand jury to indict the officers. I don’t see how the officer kneeling on the guy’s neck could _not_ be charged with murder. The victim was handcuffed, on the ground, and not fighting and there was no need for force. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2020, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15850 "2020-05-28T18:05:00Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > From the Wikipedia quote a few posts above: > The rule may be even more all-inclusive than that. It’s not even necessary, apparently, that the offender kills someone. It may suffice that somebody somehow dies in the commission of a felony, then every accomplice can be charged with Felony Murder. > > I recall a case from some time ago: A bank robber robbed a bank, and while trying to make his getaway, got shot dead by the police. (I don’t know if he fired first or any other details.) Note that the offender didn’t kill anybody. The police killed him. So the police went to the offender’s home and arrested his wife on Felony Murder charges, claiming that she had conspired with him to help plan the robbery. (I never saw any follow-up as to how that case turned out.) There are two variants of the rule. The agency theory requires that either the felon or one of the accomplices be directly responsible for the death. The other, which I forget the name of, only requires that the death be a foreseeable consequence of the underlying crime. So the police shooting an armed robber would count - after all, the police shoot armed robbers - but the police shooting a guy trying to pass a bad check wouldn’t. > [@mhendo](#): > > A couple of the stories that I’ve read on this incident, [including this one](https://www.npr.org/2020/05/13/855705278/sleeping-while-black-louisville-police-kill-unarmed-black-woman), has the victim’s family and lawyer asserting that the police had a “no-knock” warrant. > > It will be very interesting if this is true, because surely this would suggest that, contrary to their own claims, the police did NOT announce themselves before they broke into the house. The very purpose of a no-knock warrant is precisely to relieve police of the responsibility to announce themselves so they can maintain a greater element of surprise in entering the house. If it does turn out that it was a no-knock warrant, the police are going to have a hard time convincing the court that they announced themselves, and it will be much easier for the guy in the apartment to argue that he fired his initial shots in self-defense against an unknown intruder. > > More generally, I think no-knock warrants are granted far too often. They should be a measure of absolute last resort, against suspects whom you have good reason to suspect will be likely to fire on police officers. The main reason that police want these types of warrants is that they make it harder for drug suspects to flush the evidence, but to be honest, if that happens in a few cases then it will be a small price to pay for fewer dead civilians. That’s not how a no-knock warrant works (except in a very few states). It means they have to announce themselves before breaking into the home, instead of announcing themselves and waiting for the homeowner to come and open the door. It doesn’t mean they can just burst in completely unannounced and be like, “surprise!” ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2020, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15851 "2020-05-28T20:27:12Z")
Saw an image of a police officer kneeling on a man’s neck placed next to a shot of a QB kneeling for the anthem with the caption “this … is why” ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2020, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15852 "2020-05-28T20:55:21Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > That’s gonna need a fucking cite. Tim’s cite is, I am sure, that George Floyd was black. Next he’ll say Floyd died of “excited delirium,” a common police claim about dead people who - purely by coincidence, you understand - had also been beaten, choked, or hit with tasers. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2020, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15853 "2020-05-28T21:06:30Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That’s not how a no-knock warrant works (except in a very few states). It means they have to announce themselves before breaking into the home, instead of announcing themselves and waiting for the homeowner to come and open the door. It doesn’t mean they can just burst in completely unannounced and be like, “surprise!” “POLICE” followed immediately by _CRASH_ at 3 AM. Totally not gonna be surprised. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2020, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15854 "2020-05-28T21:18:26Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Tim’s cite is, I am sure, that George Floyd was black. > > Next he’ll say Floyd died of “excited delirium,” a common police claim about dead people who - purely by coincidence, you understand - had also been beaten, choked, or hit with tasers. I think that the original police statement on Floyds’ death said he seemed to be ‘under the influence’ when the police were called. Of course that was some bullshit because they also said he was sitting on his car, he was inside of it, and he, of course, resisted arrest. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2020, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15855 "2020-05-28T21:19:14Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That’s not how a no-knock warrant works (except in a very few states). It means they have to announce themselves before breaking into the home, instead of announcing themselves and waiting for the homeowner to come and open the door. It doesn’t mean they can just burst in completely unannounced and be like, “surprise!” I understand that it’s supposed to happen like that. But, as **Chisquirrel** ’s post suggests, this still leaves plenty of people not knowing what the hell happened. Also, I read quite a few of the court cases about these incidents, and listen to a few legal podcasts that often deal with police raids (the [Short Circuit podcast](https://ij.org/center-for-judicial-engagement/sc/), by the Institute for Justice, is a good one), and in many cases there seems to be significant disagreement about whether the cops announce themselves at all, and at the very least some appear to do it right _ **as** _ the door is being busted or _ **as** _ the flash-bang grenade is being tossed through the bedroom window. For all intents and purposes, the occupant often has no fucking idea who is invading their home, and this is especially true in cases where (as sometimes happens) the police actually get the wrong address, or [obtain a warrant based on unreliable information](https://www.texasmonthly.com/news/a-no-knock-raid-in-houston-led-to-deaths-and-police-injuries-should-police-rethink-the-practice/), and the occupants inside are law-abiding citizens who have no cause at all to think that they will be a target of police action. Not only that, but the fact that they call “Police” would not, in my opinion, necessarily stop someone from defending their home. If I were the sort of violent criminal who was going to conduct an armed invasion of someone’s home in the middle of the night, I might think about calling “Police” too, because you might get your intended victim to drop their weapon. No-knock warrants, even when properly executed, should be used as an absolute last resort, and only against people wanted for crimes of violence, not for what they’re most often used for, which is against people selling drugs. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2020, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15856 "2020-05-29T02:35:49Z")
> [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](#): > > Because the cause of death seems to be a drug overdose, not something that was caused by the cop. So, no cite? I guess not. Here’s a site that says video disputes officer’s claim that Floyd resisted. [Surveillance video does not support police claims that George Floyd resisted arrest](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/surveillance-video-does-not-support-police-claims-that-george-floyd-resisted-arrest/ar-BB14JneA?li=BBnb7Kz) ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2020, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15857 "2020-05-29T18:34:19Z")
[Former MPD Officer Derek Chauvin In Custody, Charged With Murder In George Floyd’s Death](https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2020/05/29/derek-chauvin-arrested-george-floyd-death-minneapolis-police-officer/) > [@](#): > > Fired Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin has been arrested four days after George Floyd’s fatal arrest that sparked protests, rioting and outcry across the city and nation, and Hennepin County Attorney Mike Freeman announced he has been charged with murder and manslaughter, with the charges scheduled to be released shortly. > … > “This is by far the fastest that we’ve ever charged a police officer,” Freeman said. > > Freeman says the other officers involved are under investigation and he “anticipates charges.” The cynic in me is wary of the “fastest we’ve ever charged” comment. It almost sounds like he’s softballing the defense a rush to justice argument. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Gay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@Enola\_Gay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Gay)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2020, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15858 "2020-05-29T18:37:34Z")
Does anyone know if any cops have been convicted of murder for killing suspects on the job? Google is failing me–keeps turning up cops who were secretly serial killers, or cops who killed their wives. I’m interested in other cases of cops tried and/or convicted of murder for their actions on duty. Anyone? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2020, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15859 "2020-05-29T20:17:26Z")
> [@Enola\_Gay](#): > > Does anyone know if any cops have been convicted of murder for killing suspects on the job? [Yes indeed](https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/07/us/minneapolis-mohamed-noor-sentenced/index.html). In Minneapolis, in fact. The offending officer did his best to look as white as possible, but that is kind of a challenge with a name like Mohamed Noor. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2020, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15860 "2020-05-29T21:07:52Z")
There was also Michael Slager, who shot and killed black man Walter Scott in South Carolina in 2015. Slager lied about how the shooting went down, and there was video showing him shooting a fleeing Scott in the back. It also showed him handcuffing a wounded Scott, and despite the cop’s claim to have administered medical aid, the video didn’t show that. The video also showed Slager pick up an object (most likely his taser) and drop it near Scott, presumably to support Slager’s testimony that Scott had gone for his taser. A jury failed to reach a decision on a state murder charge (11 of 12 voted to convict). He was charged with federal civil rights offenses, and eventually pleaded guilty to deprivation of rights under color of law. The judge in the case ruled that the “appropriate underlying offense” was second-degree murder, and [sentenced Slager to 20 years](https://www.cnn.com/2017/12/07/us/michael-slager-sentencing/index.html). ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2020, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15861 "2020-05-29T21:38:12Z")
Finally remembered enough details to pull up the [Danziger Bridge shootings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danziger_Bridge_shootings). > [@](#): > > The Danziger Bridge shootings were murders that took place on September 4, 2005, at the Danziger Bridge in New Orleans, Louisiana, United States. Six days after Hurricane Katrina struck New Orleans, members of the New Orleans Police Department (NOPD) who were allegedly responding to a call of an officer under fire shot and killed two civilians: 17-year-old James Brissette and 40-year-old Ronald Madison. Four other civilians were wounded. All of the victims were African-American. None were armed or had committed any crime. Madison, a mentally disabled man, was shot in the back. > > The NOPD attempted to cover-up the murders, falsely reporting that seven police officers responded to a police dispatch reporting an officer down, and that at least four suspects were firing weapons at the officers upon their arrival. Rev. Raymond Brown, the local head of the National Action Network, described the shootings as “…a racial tragedy.” Five officers were imprisoned, though none of the convictions were for “murder”. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2020, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15862 "2020-05-30T01:29:30Z")
Got in an brief back-and-forth with my true-blue friend, who actually thought it was a good thing that Chauvin was being charged (probably because, hey, that might calm down the rioters). But I responded that charging the officer is not an answer. It should be a requirement, but the thing that needs to be done is to fire the chief, with an eye toward hiring a replacement who will push forward with strategies like de-escalation. Which was not well received. I was told that these rioters are not persons, they are animals. However, I have also known animals that were quite well behaved, so perhaps that is the counter-argument. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=792) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=794)