# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2014, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/141 "2014-10-16T16:54:25Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > It seems cameras keep both sides more honest in their dealing with each other. An unbiased witness always makes things go a little bit better. Something about being accountable. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/142 "2014-10-20T00:22:42Z")
If a few of [these lawsuits](http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/10/georgia-teen-forced-to-ground-at-gunpoint-for-seat-belt-violation-files-12-5-million-lawsuit/) are successful, maybe we’ll see a change. Personally, I think that got got away lightly. He should have been fired, then held financially responsible for the lawsuit. ---
**Author:** ![Fallen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@Fallen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fallen)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/143 "2014-10-20T15:41:33Z")
Can’t be held responsible for something that was just filed and has yet to be won. (I’d like to think the lawsuit includes the officer and not just the PD as a defendant.\* The officer won’t be entitled to civil immunity for wilful/malicious actions. That is, If the kid wins; however, well, Georgia … and not merely dependent on a given favorable jury outcome but also the finer points of the law and an inevitable appellate marathon. - If it doesn’t, the teenager has a very bad lawyer and might want to save his tears for that instead of the rest. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/144 "2014-10-20T18:19:11Z")
Video: America’s year of police violence > **[Video: America’s Year of Police Violence](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2014/10/police-violence-video-a-year-of-footage.html)** > > While the deaths of Eric Garner in New York and Michael Brown in Missouri have made police treatment of black suspects an issue of national... ---
**Author:** ![Fallen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@Fallen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fallen)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2014, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/145 "2014-10-20T18:38:52Z")
To be sure, it’s only mid-October, and I think best to keep in mind that not all police violence is caught on video. (Prudent to account for what’s caught on video but never makes it to the youtube, etc. A well-placed threat or two coupled with a device destroyed = certain problems solved. (Most people understand what legal mayhem can ensue if they don’t go along to get along. Thankfully, some people are either too stubborn or dumb to think about the myriad of unintended consequences.) ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/146 "2014-10-24T01:06:04Z")
[ > [@](#): > > An 18-year-old killed earlier this month by an off-duty St. Louis police officer was shot eight times, including six times from behind, said a forensic pathologist who performed a private autopsy Thursday. > > Dr. Cyril Wecht, who has investigated the deaths of John F. Kennedy, Elvis Presley and JonBenet Ramsey, conducted the autopsy at the request of Vonderrit Myers Jr.‘s family and outlined the findings during a news conference at the funeral home that will handle Myers’ burial. The family’s attorneys said the autopsy suggests Myers was running away from the officer. Myers’ parents attended the autopsy announcement but did not comment. > > “The evidence shows that the story we’ve been given by the Police Department does not match up,” one of the attorneys, Jerryl Christmas, said. “There’s no evidence that there was a gun battle going on.” ]([http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US\_POLICE\_SHOOTING\_ST\_LOUIS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-10-23-20-00-11](http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_POLICE_SHOOTING_ST_LOUIS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-10-23-20-00-11)) Just saw this on the AP; thought I’d provide the update for others. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/147 "2014-10-24T14:37:16Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Relevant article: ["You see this? You see this?” Why videos of police misconduct are no panacea](http://www.salon.com/2014/10/10/%e2%80%9cyou_see_this_you_see_this%e2%80%9d_why_videos_of_police_misconduct_are_no_panacea/). The first step to changing anything (unless you can afford to hire big-shot lobbyists) is raising the public’s awareness that there’s something wrong that _needs_ changing. No, the video cameras won’t fix things by themselves, but without them, you don’t get to Step 1. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/148 "2014-11-06T15:39:27Z")
The NYPD officers who beat a Brooklyn teen after he surrendered are [being charged with assault](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/05/kahreem-tribble-beating-charges-arrest_n_6111140.html). ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/149 "2014-11-06T16:47:13Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The NYPD officers who beat a Brooklyn teen after he surrendered are [being charged with assault](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/05/kahreem-tribble-beating-charges-arrest_n_6111140.html). New York cops must be the best in the world, because they so rarely misbehave: > [@](#): > > The last time city police officers were prosecuted for brutality was in 2008, according to the New York Daily News, when three officers were charged with forcing a baton into a man’s anus during an arrest. A jury acquitted the officers. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/150 "2014-11-06T18:48:59Z")
> [@Fallen](#): > > . . . as a practical matter, most humans are pretty bad shots even under controlled calm conditions, let alone in a high-stress spur of the moment situation. . . . Another random one that comes to mine are the two cops that shot nine innocent bystanders in NYC a couple of years ago. There may have been only a couple of missed shots since at least some of the injuries were from ricochets. - Happened in front of the Empire State Building. Cops were entirely correct in shooting a murderer who was also trying to kill them. In the crowded conditions of 5th Avenue and 34th Street, a miss probably would hit a vehicle, a brick or stone building, or a person, if not all three. I believe none of the innocents injured receive life threatening wounds. And then there was the Sean Bell shooting. Four cops shot 100 times into a car. They were all standing within (probably less than) 30 feet of the vehicle, yet 50 of the shots missed the auto entirely. One of the strays hit the LIRR railroad station a half mile away. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/151 "2014-11-06T18:52:00Z")
[Georgia Mother Catches Cop Next Door Molesting Her 15- Year- Old Son (VIDEO)](http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/11/04/smyrna-cop-molesting-15-year-old-boy/) > [@](#): > > Upon returning home, the woman took her son’s cell phone. It was then that she found a series of explicit text messages and photos sent from the officer’s phone, which she describes as ‘just disgusting’. CBS 46 confirms that the text messages and photos exist, but reports the pictures and texts are too graphic to show on camera. > [@](#): > > While the woman has filed a complaint with the police department, she obviously has serious concerns about doing so. Smyrna police say that an internal investigation is being conducted into the officer’s behavior. Authorities also say that the child molestation charges are being handled by the Cobb County Crimes Against Children Unit. However, CBS 46 reports that investigators who are supposed to be working on the case have not even looked at the text messages or photos on the boy’s phone. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/152 "2014-11-06T19:03:18Z")
[Frank Serpico thinks the police are still out of control](http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/10/the-police-are-still-out-of-control-112160.html#.VFvEZtxdWSo) > [@](#): > > Police make up a peculiar subculture in society. More often than not they have their own moral code of behavior, an “us against them” attitude, enforced by a Blue Wall of Silence. It’s their version of the Mafia’s _omerta_. Speak out, and you’re no longer “one of us.” You’re one of “them.” And as James Fyfe, a nationally recognized expert on the use of force, wrote in his 1993 book about this issue, Above The Law, officers who break the code sometimes won’t be helped in emergency situations, as I wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2014, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/153 "2014-11-09T17:11:14Z")
Another one of [America’s finest](http://gawker.com/ny-cop-in-violent-intimidation-video-ill-rip-your-fuc-1656543764) reaching out and making connections with the local community. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2014, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/154 "2014-11-09T17:54:34Z")
And yet some people can’t understand why people mistrust the cops. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2014, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/155 "2014-11-10T06:34:51Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Another one of [America’s finest](http://gawker.com/ny-cop-in-violent-intimidation-video-ill-rip-your-fuc-1656543764) reaching out and making connections with the local community. And here’s the cop in question, [summing up](http://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Saratoga-deputy-suspended-as-video-of-slapping-5880169.php) the way so many police apparently feel about their abuse of authority, and about being held accountable for it: > [@](#): > > Asked if he would have handled the matter the same way again, Glans said he would, but not if he knew it was being filmed. He acknowledged that he did not know the incident was being videotaped. > > “I was concerned. It was a public safety issue,” the sergeant said. “If I had to do it all over again … I’d probably do the same thing. If I knew the camera was there, no, because it does look bad.” I would abuse my authority and violate the constitution again, although not if i knew i was being filmed. Nice! ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/156 "2014-11-11T07:14:12Z")
I honestly don’t know what to think about that video. It seems like the officer was investigating some sort of crime, and that furthermore there was a weapon visible in the vehicle. So he wanted to search it. Without going through the hassle of getting a warrant. So he attempts to intimidate the punk (who might be a fine citizen for all I know). He slaps him once. But he doesn’t lose his cool: he doesn’t go ballistic. It appears to me that he was doing things by the unwritten book as it were, standard unofficial procedure. I’m guessing that behavior wasn’t out of the ordinary and reflects longstanding suburban cop behavioral norms. Today, smartphones have video cameras. If we force cops to do things by the book -the written book that is- will there be unintended consequences? That gives me some pause. I don’t want to live in Orwell’s _1984_, but I don’t want _Mad Max_ either. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/157 "2014-11-11T07:36:59Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I honestly don’t know what to think about that video. > > It seems like the officer was investigating some sort of crime, and that furthermore there was a weapon visible in the vehicle. So he wanted to search it. Without going through the hassle of getting a warrant. > > So he attempts to intimidate the punk (who might be a fine citizen for all I know). He slaps him once. But he doesn’t lose his cool: he doesn’t go ballistic. It appears to me that he was doing things by the unwritten book as it were, standard unofficial procedure. I’m guessing that behavior wasn’t out of the ordinary and reflects longstanding suburban cop behavioral norms. > Today, smartphones have video cameras. If we force cops to do things by the book -the written book that is- will there be unintended consequences? That gives me some pause. I don’t want to live in Orwell’s _1984_, but I don’t want _Mad Max_ either. My question to you is very simple: if he really felt like these young men might be the people involved in the crime, what did he possibly have to lose by following the law and getting a warrant? As for the alleged crime that he was investigating, according to [this news story](http://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Saratoga-sheriff-to-discuss-viral-video-5883183.php#photo-7126901), the officers were investigating “a call of suspicious people parking at another business and entering woods on Route 236 near the Wal-Mart.” Sounds like a pretty dangerous situation. Parking and entering woods! What next? Standing around and chatting? It’s pretty damn unfortunate that a cop intimidating a citizen into giving up his constitutional rights, physically assaulting him, and following it up with threats of further violence, apparently does not qualify as “losing his cool” in your world, and can be shrugged off as “standard unofficial procedure.” Basically, the only thing in your post that i agree with is your observation that this probably “reflects longstanding suburban cop behavioral norms.” It’s just that i see this as part of the problem, rather than as something that might need to be preserved due to a fear of nebulous, vaguely-defined “unintended consequences.” I am, however, happy to note that, according to the story linked above, the cop in question has resigned from his position, and was today: > [@](#): > > arraigned in Halfmoon Town Court on Monday afternoon on one count of official misconduct, a misdemeanor, and second-degree harassment, a violation. The charges state that while on-duty and in uniform Glans “did knowingly commit unauthorized physical acts in seeking to secure and expedite the search of a vehicle with an intent to benefit himself,” according to court records. The harassment charge says Glans slapped Fitch “in the back of the head with an open hand.” ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/158 "2014-11-11T23:50:41Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > My question to you is very simple: if he really felt like these young men might be the people involved in the crime, what did he possibly have to lose by following the law and getting a warrant? These things take time and municipal funds. Also, if the crime is serious as I assume it is… > [@](#): > > As for the alleged crime that he was investigating, according to [this news story](http://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Saratoga-sheriff-to-discuss-viral-video-5883183.php#photo-7126901), the officers were investigating “a call of suspicious people parking at another business and entering woods on Route 236 near the Wal-Mart.” Sounds like a pretty dangerous situation. Parking and entering woods! What next? Standing around and chatting? LOL. Well there goes my theory. At worst they were smoking pot. So we’re discussing a picayune drug bust (which didn’t happen). > [@](#): > > It’s pretty damn unfortunate that a cop intimidating a citizen into giving up his constitutional rights, physically assaulting him, and following it up with threats of further violence, apparently does not qualify as “losing his cool” in your world, and can be shrugged off as “standard unofficial procedure.” Losing your cool is when a cop leaves visible damage on the suspect. That was controlled (and illegal) violence. SOP. > [@](#): > > Basically, the only thing in your post that i agree with is your observation that this probably “reflects longstanding suburban cop behavioral norms.” It’s just that i see this as part of the problem, rather than as something that might need to be preserved due to a fear of nebulous, vaguely-defined “unintended consequences.” It’s only nebulous because I don’t know about cop-work. Nor do TV watchers know about it. What I’m saying is that there are all manner of technically illegal police procedures that are routinely used and before we declare nuclear war on them, I’d like to see the situation gamed out. I don’t have the knowledge to do that though. Your stepdad or **pkbites** might have some insight. Presumably the matter could be studied. ETA: I suppose they could have been running a stolen goods ring. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2014, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/159 "2014-11-12T00:19:44Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > These things take time and municipal funds. You know what else takes time and municipal funds? Lawsuits over constitutional violations. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2014, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/160 "2014-11-12T01:03:59Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > You know what else takes time and municipal funds? Lawsuits over constitutional violations. Much less of a problem when compact video cameras aren’t routinely carried by the citizenry. I think reforms are inevitable, though the process will drag out. I should like to know the consequences of various proposed shifts in standard _de facto_ police procedures. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=9)