# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 800
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15983 "2020-06-06T19:14:38Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > We have lots of evidence that they were following orders. We don’t have proof. But it’s pretty damning that no one intervened and that they quit the team after the fact. And I never, ever said “instead of”. > > Look, mass resignations are really rare, especially on this scale. They speak to a sense of deep outrage, of betrayal. I just can’t imagine you’d get that sort of reaction in support of this brutality if they didn’t feel they had been wronged. They must have felt the cops who assaulted this poor man were entitled to the administration’s support. That sense of entitlement came from somewhere. > > Again, not saying it’s justified. But do you really feel like the 50+ members of the riot team are just some “bad apples” and somehow NOT representative of the culture of the Buffalo Police Department as a whole? They put all the bad apples on the riot team? You’re right. They didn’t put the bad apples on the riot squad. The whole fucking barrel is rotten. They resigned because they think they were wronged when all of a sudden we changed the rules on them. They never expected to be punished for beating up poor people or brown people, that’s not fair. We should have warned them if we were going to expect them not to act like uniformed thugs. They’ve knocked down old men with impunity for decades and suddenly it’s a problem? And I’m sure their superiors didn’t order them to rough up protesters. I’m sure their superiors very carefully told them to protect the citizenry and their property in accordance to their constitutional rights, just like they’ve ordered them a hundred times before. And every time they’ve ordered them to do that in the past their superiors have looked the other way when the cops hammered some poor bastard to the ground. Well, this time they got caught. The times have changed. This isn’t something that just started happening, it’s something that started happening on camera. Cops have been acting like this forever, they just started being filmed more often. It’s just too bad that the 95% of cops who are uniformed thugs give the rest of them a bad name. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15984 "2020-06-06T19:40:27Z")
I don’t think we disagree, except you seem to think that their superiors were actually ignorant that this was the case. I don’t believe that. They all came up through the same system. Whatever words were said, the riot police knew they were supposed to be rough, they were doing what was expected. I really hope they aren’t content to be the fall guys, that they take all the rest with them. That’s my whole point. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15985 "2020-06-06T20:21:32Z")
If those 57 who quit that special team come out and publicly discuss just what happened, and denounce the same, and their story is credible, THEN we can consider having some respect for them. Maybe. They may still have been thugs, but at least we could see them as repentant thugs. So far, I’m not hearing that. (ETA: To be sure, their lawyers are probably advising them in the strongest terms to keep their moufs shut.) ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15986 "2020-06-06T20:34:20Z")
I don’t have any respect for them, regardless. That’s not my point at all. The point is just that such a group action suggests this was a systemic problem and that acting like the two cops who have been charged were outliers seems unwarranted. They aren’t awesome. But it’s awesome to see a circular firing squad form up and show the rest of the world the reality of the problem. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15987 "2020-06-06T20:40:41Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > They’re still on the force, just not on the special team. Yeah, I saw that after I posted, and 502’s wouldn’t let me edit. And the conversation has moved on a bit from there as well. Certainly a notable action, whether it leads to positive or negative outcomes remains to be seen. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2020, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15988 "2020-06-06T21:58:58Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > Red Forman? Dumbass! ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2020, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15989 "2020-06-07T03:15:50Z")
Buffalo police applaud their fellow cops after they leave the courthouse after being charged for assaulting the elderly man. (video with sound) [https://video.twimg.com/ext\_tw\_video/1269322534245163008/pu/vid/1272x720/yblX62v0FtcYPfEA.mp4?tag=10](https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1269322534245163008/pu/vid/1272x720/yblX62v0FtcYPfEA.mp4?tag=10) ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2020, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15990 "2020-06-07T03:53:44Z")
Given the way that they’re applauding at the courthouse, it doesn’t look like they’re making a subtle, but important statement about corruption in the higher ranks of the force. It looks pretty much like Buffalo Police are pro-beating-up-the-elderly. When someone tells us who they are, we should listen. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2020, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15991 "2020-06-07T11:44:36Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > Buffalo police applaud their fellow cops after they leave the courthouse after being charged for assaulting the elderly man. (video with sound) > [https://video.twimg.com/ext\_tw\_video/1269322534245163008/pu/vid/1272x720/yblX62v0FtcYPfEA.mp4?tag=10](https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1269322534245163008/pu/vid/1272x720/yblX62v0FtcYPfEA.mp4?tag=10) Maybe they could form a new squad devoted solely to beating up on elderly men. “Get out there and bloody some grey heads, men!!!” ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2020, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15992 "2020-06-07T12:26:53Z")
The Bag o Bones Brigade ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2020, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15993 "2020-06-07T12:43:55Z")
[Evidence that the police union is at least partially to blame for the violence.](https://theintercept.com/2020/06/02/minneapolis-police-union-bob-kroll-shootings/?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=theintercept&utm_source=twitter) > [@](#): > > Kroll has been a central figure in the unfolding protests and riots following the killing of George Floyd by Minnesota police officer Derek Chauvin. In a letter to union members on Monday, Kroll called Floyd a “violent criminal” and described the ongoing protests as a “terrorist movement” that was years in the making, starting with a minimized police force. He railed against the city’s politicians, namely Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey and state Gov. Tim Walz, for not authorizing greater force to stop the uprising. “The politicians are to blame and you are the scapegoats,” he wrote. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2020, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15994 "2020-06-07T12:55:59Z")
> [@amarinth](#): > > Given the way that they’re applauding at the courthouse, it doesn’t look like they’re making a subtle, but important statement about corruption in the higher ranks of the force. > It looks pretty much like Buffalo Police are pro-beating-up-the-elderly. > > When someone tells us who they are, we should listen. That’s not what I am saying. I am not saying that they are pointing out corruption because they are opposed to it, i am saying they are pointing out corruption because they feel entitled to it, because they had years and years where they were entitled, where they felt confident that they could fuck people up and they would be protected. It’s not subtle, its a Mac truck. I don’t understand why people are reluctant to believe the whole department is complicit in this. Riot police AND their superiors. They can all be evil fucks. Seems the most likely thing. ---
**Author:** ![slumtrimpet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@slumtrimpet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slumtrimpet)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2020, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15995 "2020-06-07T13:30:25Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > That’s not what I am saying. I am not saying that they are pointing out corruption because they are opposed to it, i am saying they are pointing out corruption because they feel entitled to it, because they had years and years where they were entitled, where they felt confident that they could fuck people up and they would be protected. It’s not subtle, its a Mac truck. > > I don’t understand why people are reluctant to believe the whole department is complicit in this. Riot police AND their superiors. They can all be evil fucks. Seems the most likely thing. Exactly. “Just following orders” has some rather unfortunate connotations so we’ve changed that to “following proper policing procedures”\*. Sounds much better, but it’s the exact same thing. If the ‘proper procedure’ is to violently shove back everyone you come across (or kneel on their neck until they stop moving and complaining) and you do that, and have done that all along, then it’s a nasty surprise when it’s suddenly considered not the thing. It’s the ‘procedures’ that need looking at (and changing) as well as the people that have embraced them. \*direct quote from our local rag’s story about an indigenous woman who was shot and killed during a welfare check a few days ago. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2020, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15996 "2020-06-07T17:32:11Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I don’t understand why people are reluctant to believe the whole department is complicit in this. Riot police AND their superiors. They can all be evil fucks. Seems the most likely thing. To be clear, I do believe the whole department is complicit. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15997 "2020-06-08T11:41:11Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > [Evidence that the police union is at least partially to blame for the violence.](https://theintercept.com/2020/06/02/minneapolis-police-union-bob-kroll-shootings/?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=theintercept&utm_source=twitter) > > > [@](#): > > > > Kroll has been a central figure in the unfolding protests and riots following the killing of George Floyd by Minnesota police officer Derek Chauvin. Yeah, even my Trump-loving little brother thinks the Minneapolis PD and Kroll in particular need to have a hammer dropped on them. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15998 "2020-06-08T11:50:32Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > You know, if they had resigned because the response team was given orders to do things like put old men in the hospital for standing on the street, and they refuse to be part of it… this would be an honorable choice. > > But they didn’t. They’re fine with shoving old men down and putting them in the hospital, it’s the facing consequences part they don’t like. 100% guaranteed if those officers weren’t disciplined, they’d all be out there today following orders. This. They had no problem UNTIL they got called on it. They like having no accountability, and the power to abuse anyone they please. The job, by its very nature (badge, guns, power, authority and the use of force) attracts the WRONG type of people, and the screening is OBVIOUSLY inadequate. A big part of the problem is police unions, that knowingly and successfully protect seriously bad cops. They protect cops that are known to be bad. I’m a union guy, but it’s time to get rid of police unions. And we’re fucking SICK of the “few bad apples wait until the facts etc” garbage. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/15999 "2020-06-08T11:51:54Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Don’t let the door etc. YES. Bye. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/16000 "2020-06-08T11:57:13Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > True, but if you have to choose, isn’t it better to go after the guys \*giving \*the orders? It’s not an either or. Use the flunkies to get the big shots, and then “reward” the flunkies WITH them later. Just give the flunkies **slightly** lighter sentences for flipping on the “Mister Bigs”. Unless they were really acting on their own. In which case crucify them. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/16001 "2020-06-08T12:01:55Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > Buffalo police applaud their fellow cops after they leave the courthouse after being charged for assaulting the elderly man. (video with sound) > [https://video.twimg.com/ext\_tw\_video/1269322534245163008/pu/vid/1272x720/yblX62v0FtcYPfEA.mp4?tag=10](https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1269322534245163008/pu/vid/1272x720/yblX62v0FtcYPfEA.mp4?tag=10) So then the whole fucking barrel is rotten. ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2020, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/16002 "2020-06-08T14:38:19Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > C(1) - Quit treating police departments like they are a branch of the military. > > C(6)(b) - Don’t automatically give preference to those with military experience. Rather, give preference to those who do not have military experience. Yeah, stop comparing cops to the military, which does have its own issues, but also has the UCMJ, a proud tradition of political neutrality, and a profound distaste for hurting American civilians, all of which Repubs have attempted to destroy. There are surprisingly few ex military in the police. I imagine Blackwater or whatever the fuck Erik Prince is calling them these days scoop up most of the strutting failures that get booted out. The military stresses _de_-escalation. The military has Rules of Engagement which have five or seven levels —I can no longer remember— including only being allowed to \return\ fire when fired upon. There’s also the fact that an accidental discharge of a firearm can take down the shooter, the shooter’s squad leader, the squad leader’s platoon NCO, the CO, the BNCO…I saw one case where it went as high as Brigade, but the highest two just got career-ending letters of reprimand. Of course, that was before the Repubs started letting Evangelical assholes in. The military also is at least 40% minority, immigrant, and female. The cops are 80-90% white, male, and Trumpie. Everybody above E5 these days has a degree. At interrogator school, we had to read and memorize sections of the Geneva Conventions. (What nobody wants to tell you about interrogation is that _everybody_ wants to talk, and in some places, it’s not getting them to talk that’s the problem, it’s getting them to shut up that’ll keep you busy.) The cops have used, for example, the North Hollywood shooting twenty-three fucking years ago as an excuse for “militarization.” It happened _once_ and there were only two guys, one of which they refused to render aid to after shooting him twenty times. You are required to render aid once the combatant ceases or is no longer able to resist. The Army would have sent two snipers----hopefully not those assholes Kyle or Gallagher)----and the two guys at least wouldn’t have wounded all those people and shot up a neighborhood. When the NYPD had a snit a few years back, the results were not what they expected. > **[The NYPD "slowdown" that’s cut arrests in New York by half, explained](https://www.vox.com/2015/1/6/7501953/nypd-mayor-arrests-union)** > > The NYPD feels underappreciated by Mayor Bill de Blasio — so they're no longer issuing parking tickets or arresting minor offenders Legalize drugs, stop using surplus military equipment-----are the cops facing IEDS _every day_? VBIEDS? suicide bombers? ambushes? firefights?—No?Then STFU----; and get rid of the police unions that take pride in defending utter scumbags. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=799) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=801)