# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 804
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/16063 "2020-06-11T21:08:27Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Actually, I don’t. If I assaulted someone and my assault was posted on the Internet, I would be fired. I can be fired for any reason that is not a protected class. If you are part of a collective bargaining agreement that says the termination must be done in a certain way, then it must be done in a certain way, whether you assaulted someone or not. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/16064 "2020-06-11T21:16:57Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Courts never used to question the word of the criminal cop… > …And the police wonder why they are not respected - when some of their members are simply criminals who deliberately injure vulnerable citizens for no reason, and their fellow officers who witness this do nothing - and their superiors cover up evidence. Actually, courts DID used to question cops. Not in our lifetimes, to be sure, but there was once a day when cops weren’t necessarily always believed. If you go well back, to the early 20th century and before, police didn’t have as long a reputation of professionalism as they developed over the last hundred years or so, and judges and juries were more willing to be a bit skeptical of them. It’s only in those last hundred years that the “cops don’t lie in court” thing took hold, and really only since WWII that conviction rates in criminal cases suddenly rose to 90 percent and above. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/16065 "2020-06-11T21:59:28Z")
Chicago cops caught on video lounging around in Congressman Bobby Rush’s campaign office, using cell phones and popping popcorn in the microwave, while looting was going on nearby. > **[Rep. Rush Says Officers Caught on Cam ‘Lounging' in Campaign Office Amid Looting](https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/rep-rush-says-officers-caught-on-cam-lounging-in-his-campaign-office-making-popcorn-amid-looting/2288379/)** > > Videotape shows more than a dozen officers “lounging” in U.S. Rep. Bobby Rush’s campaign office, one even making popcorn, as protests and looting erupted in Chicago earlier this month, he revealed Thursday. ---
**Author:** ![squidfood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a87d85/32.png) [@squidfood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squidfood)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/16066 "2020-06-11T22:13:00Z")
> [@casdave](#): > > I am a little surprised that US public sector employees seem to be impossible to fire on the spot - summarily dismissed - is that genuinely the case? Seems to me there would be certain instances where summary dismissal can be awarded. I am a federal (civilian) supervisor. I’ve been involved in dismissal actions. There’s quite a few “instant” dismissal reasons on the books, pretty much what you’d expect (actual criminal behavior, viewing porn in the office, a few other obvious bright-line things). If you don’t hit one of those, and the problem is job performance or “lesser” wrongdoings, it can be a tedious, year+ long process. It’s not just the paper trail (which is not usually too hard), it’s that the higher-ups in the unions _and_ the higher-ups on the management side are anxious to avoid lawsuits/complaints, so agency-specific policies usually have several prolonged mediation steps and force the examination of options (e.g. transfer instead of firing) along the way. In the end, it’s doable though. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2020, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/16067 "2020-06-11T22:57:59Z")
> [@squidfood](#): > > There’s quite a few “instant” dismissal reasons on the books, pretty much what you’d expect (actual criminal behavior, viewing porn in the office Note to self: cancel civil service interview. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/16068 "2020-06-12T00:46:50Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > Note to self: cancel civil service interview. I think the premise is that you are using office equipment to do it. If you bring your own personal magazine, or have some sort of pre-loaded device that is reasonably discreet, you would probably get a stern warning. Unless, of course, you are using the joystick. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/16069 "2020-06-12T13:51:31Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > If you are part of a collective bargaining agreement that says the termination must be done in a certain way, then it must be done in a certain way, whether you assaulted someone or not. Are there any union contracts that protect an employee in the event of a conviction of an assault? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/16070 "2020-06-12T15:30:02Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Are there any union contracts that protect an employee in the event of a conviction of an assault? I’m struggling to work out how this is relevant to the point that **RickJay** was making. First, how would he know? There are literally thousands of law enforcement agencies and departments in the United States (over 16,000 last I checked), and many (most?) of them have some sort of contractual arrangement negotiated by a union or some other representative group. Second, the point was not that union contracts might protect a person convicted of assault; the point was that, if you commit assault and are covered by a union contract, your employer is required to follow the procedures laid out in the contract (as well as any relevant statutes) in order to terminate your employment. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/16071 "2020-06-12T18:35:02Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I’m struggling to work out how this is relevant to the point that **RickJay** was making. > > First, how would he know? There are literally thousands of law enforcement agencies and departments in the United States (over 16,000 last I checked), and many (most?) of them have some sort of contractual arrangement negotiated by a union or some other representative group. > > Second, the point was not that union contracts might protect a person convicted of assault; the point was that, if you commit assault and are covered by a union contract, your employer is required to follow the procedures laid out in the contract (as well as any relevant statutes) in order to terminate your employment. Well, it was a question about the nature of union contracts. And we had established that if you are simply accused of assault, even if it is on camera, then the union contract would protect you from immediate dismissal. As stated up thread by others, there are situations where you can be immediately dismissed. My question was whether a union contract could protect you against dismissal for having been convicted of a felony, or is that would be a situation where you can be immediately dismissed. My assumption would be no, if found guilty in a court of law, then that should take care of any fact finding issues as to the event. Then the only procedure left is to fire them. Maybe attach the court documents showing the conviction. As far as how he would know, I don’t know myself, that’s why I asked. However, I am not asking for an overview of 16,000 contracts, I am asking if there are any at all that would prevent immediate dismissal in the event of a felony conviction. If you have 16,000 people, and I ask, are any of them over 7 feet tall? That doesn’t mean that I am asking you to measure all of them. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/16072 "2020-06-12T19:44:05Z")
> [@squidfood](#): > > If you don’t hit one of those, and the problem is job performance or “lesser” wrongdoings, it can be a tedious, year+ long process. It’s not just the paper trail (which is not usually too hard), it’s that the higher-ups in the unions _and_ the higher-ups on the management side are anxious to avoid lawsuits/complaints, so agency-specific policies usually have several prolonged mediation steps and force the examination of options (e.g. transfer instead of firing) along the way. One thing that people tend to overlook when it takes a long time to fire a public sector employee is that the person generally has years of good reviews and zero complaints on the books. It’s legitimate for higher ups or HR to say ‘hey wait a minute, if this person really is incompetent, why did you give them ‘good’ ratings for the last five years?’ or ‘if this person is so constantly obnoxious, why has no one complained before?’. I don’t think it’s actually unreasonable to say ‘if someone has had years of good reviews and starts doing bad, we should try to examine what’s changed and see if we can fix it instead of just cutting them loose’. The fault lies actually lies with their direct supervisor or manager for not addressing the problems over time, if someone has been doing a crap job for five years then they should have five years of crap reviews. It is usually much easier to just give a ‘good’ or ‘OK’ review than to give a ‘bad’ review and justify it, but that’s the person in charge slacking off, not the system failing. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2020, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/16073 "2020-06-12T20:20:46Z")
My experience with performance management issues, and sometimes sick attendance management has been that a newly promoted manager is reading all the performance management standards wrongly, often asking people to work above their grade and pressurising. It’s new managers, not incoming experienced ones, that seem to be at least most of the problem - they cannot even follow their own procedures. I’ve seen a few good long serving employees be moved to other ares and suddenly their original section falls apart - turns out they were the glue holding it all together - yes there are protocols and procedures about exactly how certain tasks are supposed to be done, but anyone in public service knows these things get right in the way and you have to know the ways around to make it all work. Often its the personal contacts and knowing the phone numbers of exactly the right people that makes it all work. New managers often are unaware of all of this, and try to implement the rules to the book style, and end up bewildered when it all falls apart on them. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/16074 "2020-06-13T14:55:19Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > Sounds like the mayor and chief needed to say something like: > > Still going to piss folks off, but if they can show that they are actually getting rid of the ‘bad apples’, then some trust may eventually be reestablished. But they almost never do, and then, only when forced to. People have had enough. It’s painfully obvious that there are far more than just “a few bad ones”, and it is painfully obvious that “the system” is in place only to protect THEM. The whole thing is rotten to the core. ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/16075 "2020-06-13T19:24:59Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > One thing that people tend to overlook when it takes a long time to fire a public sector employee is that the person generally has years of good reviews and zero complaints on the books. It’s legitimate for higher ups or HR to say ‘hey wait a minute, if this person really is incompetent, why did you give them ‘good’ ratings for the last five years?’ or ‘if this person is so constantly obnoxious, why has no one complained before?’. I don’t think it’s actually unreasonable to say ‘if someone has had years of good reviews and starts doing bad, we should try to examine what’s changed and see if we can fix it instead of just cutting them loose’. > > The fault lies actually lies with their direct supervisor or manager for not addressing the problems over time, if someone has been doing a crap job for five years then they should have five years of crap reviews. It is usually much easier to just give a ‘good’ or ‘OK’ review than to give a ‘bad’ review and justify it, but that’s the person in charge slacking off, not the system failing. Exactly. Document. Document. Document. If you don’t? Don’t be surprised if you’re not allowed to get rid of the person. Do your job. Counsel. Make notes. Create a paper trail. Not as easy going along to get along, but you’ll get results in most cases. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/16076 "2020-06-13T20:08:00Z")
Long Island cop walking shoulder to shoulder with a protester, bumping into him along the way, then when that doesn’t get a reaction out of him, he steps in front of him and comes to a full stop, forcing the protester to run into him. The other cops immediately attack the guy and throw him to the ground, presumably charging him with assaulting the cop who stepped in front of him. > ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/16077 "2020-06-13T20:43:06Z")
Good thing that shit is on video. Fucking cops. The police report filed for George Floyd said he was resisting. That shit was on video, too. Fucking lying cops. Cops: Do you want things to get better in this country, or worse? Ball’s in your fucking court. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/16078 "2020-06-13T21:47:57Z")
Reports that the Atlanta police chief is resigning over a dirty shooting by the police. No link yet. Seems to be in response to [Rayshard Brooks shooting](https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/06/13/atlanta-shooting-police/). ETA: And it looks like the article has been updated to include the resignation. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2020, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/16079 "2020-06-13T22:52:35Z")
Is this a problem? [California cops under fire after video shows them tackling, putting bag over head of 12-year-old](https://abcnews.go.com/US/california-cops-fire-video-shows-tackling-putting-bag/story?id=63197598) Doesn’t seem like a problem to me, but a lot of people are mad about it. From the video (which I had to play with the sound off), the cops seem pretty gentle with the kid. The spit shield was evidently needed and looks to have been used properly. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2020, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/16080 "2020-06-14T01:15:47Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Are there any union contracts that protect an employee in the event of a conviction of an assault? I would say, > [@bobot](#): > > … Fucking lying cops… in the case of the police, it has been largely irrelevant. They have, at least until the past decade, had essentially total control of the narrative. If a “suspect” said that an officer beat the crap out him, the officer would say “he fell down”, and his partner would, “yeah, yeah, that’s the ticket, I saw it, he fell down” and that would be that, because what the police say counts for double-plus-veracity. So, in the past, police unions have simply not had to work that hard. Officers’ statements were gospel, and they all did their best to cover each other’s asses. I suspect there may have even been some collusion from time to time on the part of the ME, and, of course, the DA was fond of a wink and “oh my, i seem to have dropped the charges, how clumsy of me”. In the end, we can criticize the police unions’ part in all of this, but, for the most part, I believe they have been pretty insignificant. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2020, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/16081 "2020-06-14T11:55:54Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > Reports that the Atlanta police chief is resigning over a dirty shooting by the police. No link yet. > > Seems to be in response to [Rayshard Brooks shooting](https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/06/13/atlanta-shooting-police/). > > ETA: And it looks like the article has been updated to include the resignation. From the article I read in The NY Times, this particular incident might not advance the cause against unnecessary police violence. When someone steals a taser gun from a cop and then points it at the cop, they’re taking a big risk, whatever the color of their skin. No, the cop shouldn’t have shot to kill — and I’m pretty sure it’s a bit less likely they would have, had the taser-pointer been white — and yes, this is another example of a cop exaggerating the threat to their own life in the heat of the moment… …BUT, this incident does muddy the waters for “the cause,” just a bit. It SHOULDN’T — it doesn’t actually detract from the truth and necessity of the cause, not one iota — but I’m still concerned it might take just a little wind out of the sails, right when things could keep building momentum toward even deeper real change, OR things could start to fizzle out. (Real change, in active policy as well as opinions and attitudes, has already happened, rather impressively, but it needs to go further still.) ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2020, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/16082 "2020-06-14T13:33:06Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > The police union gets to vote on what these agreements are. If they vote for “protect cops who beat people” it is my absolute right as a citizen of this country to think the police are no better than a gang of thugs who demand **the legal right to fuck up anyone they want without reprisal**. … and that is exactly how it is. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=803) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=805)