# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 89
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2015, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1761 "2015-04-14T18:27:57Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You have no idea if they were dead. If they were dead or not is irrelevant. Either way, the defendant’s actions do not constitute a crime. > [@](#): > > How do you know the engine was still running? Because _the article we are discussing states that it was;_ > [@](#): > > Brelo’s defence team has argued that all 49 rounds Brelo fired that night, including the last 15, were lawful and that the threat did not end until Brelo reached into the Malibu and removed the keys, preventing the suspects from using the car as a weapon. > [@](#): > > How do you know this isn’t possible? If the deceased had been conscious and armed, then attempting to open the door and physically examine them to determine their status would have likely resulted in there being at least one additional casualty. > [@](#): > > What extreme line did I argue? It didn’t conflict with any of this. Do you believe the first 122 times the cops shot at the car were completely fine and dandy, or don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2015, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1762 "2015-04-14T18:29:35Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Which is why the cop didn’t keep his distance but ran over and stood on their hood. He did that because they were dangerous, no? Yes. He did that because they were dangerous and in his perception he needed a clear shot in order to neutralize that danger. > [@orcenio](#): > > You do too, no? You’ve clearly stated that you believe this was a simple case of an execution, and that your police force should be conducting executions of people who are deemed a threat. If a dog starts biting people, you put it down. That doesn’t mean you’re “executing” the dog. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2015, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1763 "2015-04-14T18:35:29Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If a dog starts biting people, you put it down. That doesn’t mean you’re “executing” the dog. People are not dogs, you sick little turd. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2015, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1764 "2015-04-14T18:51:27Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > People are not dogs, you sick little turd. No, the dogs don’t choose to be violent or uncooperative, and yet it’s still ok to shoot them. Hardly less so with people who choose to do so. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2015, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1765 "2015-04-14T18:57:51Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If they were dead or not is irrelevant. Either way, the defendant’s actions do not constitute a crime. So says **Smapti** , with an awful record on the facts. I don’t believe you. The prosecutors in this case don’t agree, and I trust them on matters of law more than **Smapti**. > [@](#): > > Because _the article we are discussing states that it was;_ _No it doesn’t_. Do you know how a car works? “Keys in the ignition” does not equal “engine running”. > [@](#): > > If the deceased had been conscious and armed, then attempting to open the door and physically examine them to determine their status would have likely resulted in there being at least one additional casualty. That’s not necessarily the only way to determine if they are conscious. Cars have windows. Human eyes can see through car window glass. > [@](#): > > Do you believe the first 122 times the cops shot at the car were completely fine and dandy, or don’t you? I already said I don’t know, because the article discusses the 15 shots that the prosecutors argue were _not_ lawful. I haven’t seen prosecutor’s statements on the other shots fired. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2015, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1766 "2015-04-14T18:59:35Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, the dogs don’t choose to be violent or uncooperative, and yet it’s still ok to shoot them. Hardly less so with people who choose to do so. :eek: It’s okay to shoot people for being _uncooperative_? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2015, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1767 "2015-04-14T19:01:33Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > :eek: It’s okay to shoot people for being _uncooperative_? If it reaches the point of violently resisting arrest, definitely. And it’s certainly OK for the police to use physical force to enforce cooperation. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2015, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1768 "2015-04-14T19:04:08Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > If it reaches the point of violently resisting arrest, definitely. And it’s certainly OK for the police to use physical force to enforce cooperation. So it’s not “violent _or_ uncooperative” (for shootings), then? It’s just “violent”? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2015, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1769 "2015-04-14T19:06:47Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > _No it doesn’t_. Do you know how a car works? “Keys in the ignition” does not equal “engine running”. If it is your assertion that the driver took time out to turn the engine off while being shot, then please provide evidence for that assertion. > [@](#): > > That’s not necessarily the only way to determine if they are conscious. Cars have windows. Human eyes can see through car window glass. What visual cues can one use to identify the difference between an unconscious person and a person who is feigning unconsciousness so they can shoot and kill you? Keep in mind that if you’re wrong, you die. > [@](#): > > I already said I don’t know, because the article discusses the 15 shots that the prosecutors argue were _not_ lawful. I haven’t seen prosecutor’s statements on the other shots fired. The prosecutor’s refusal to seek any charges relating to the other 122 shots speaks for itself. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2015, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1770 "2015-04-14T19:07:41Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So it’s not “violent _or_ uncooperative” (for shootings), then? It’s just “violent”? Yes, I used some hyperbole there. Point being, if it’s OK to shoot a dog for something it didn’t choose to do, it’s hardly worse to shoot a person who chooses to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2015, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1771 "2015-04-14T19:08:17Z")
> **[Medical marijuana activist in Kansas arrested, son taken away after he spoke...](https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2015/04/14/1377680/-Medical-marijuana-activist-in-Kansas-arrested-son-taken-away-after-he-spoke-up-to-D-A-R-E-officer)** > > Shona Banda discussing how medical marijuana changed her life. > > Shona Banda is a medical marijuana activist living in Garden City, Kansas. She suffered Crohn's Disease for years before discovering ... Not a violent case, but disturbing nonetheless. Medical marijuana is not legal in Kansas. Shona Banda is a medical marijuana activist trying to get the Kansas law changed. She has Crohn’s Disease, which she says is treated by marijuana oil. Banda’s 11-year-old son was regaled _in his public school_ by a police officer pontificating on the evuhls of marihuana, so he stood up in class and pointed out the policeman’s error. The policeman responded by taking the kid to the office and holding him incommunicado without benefit of notifying his mother that he was being held. The police then got a search warrant for Banda’s home, where they found 2 ounces of marijuana and marijuana oil. Banda’s son has been taken away from her for the crime of possession of 2 ounces of marijuana. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2015, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1772 "2015-04-14T19:08:59Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yes, I used some hyperbole there. > > Point being, if it’s OK to shoot a dog for something it didn’t choose to do, it’s hardly worse to shoot a person who chooses to do it. I think that’s a bad point… one should be much more reluctant to shoot a person than a dog. Taking a human life is very, very different than taking an animal’s life, as much as I love dogs. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2015, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1773 "2015-04-14T19:15:33Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think that’s a bad point… one should be much more reluctant to shoot a person than a dog. Taking a human life is very, very different than taking an animal’s life, as much as I love dogs. Depends on the reason. Euthanasia? Fine, shoot the dog not the person. Self defence? No difference, either you’re at risk or you’re not. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2015, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1774 "2015-04-14T19:16:42Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > Banda’s son has been taken away from her for the crime of possession of 2 ounces of marijuana. Good. Maybe he’ll have a better chance at success now that he’s out of the hands of a woo-believing snake oil peddler. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2015, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1775 "2015-04-14T19:20:28Z")
So you’re a medical practitioner now? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2015, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1776 "2015-04-14T19:24:17Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If it is your assertion that the driver took time out to turn the engine off while being shot, then please provide evidence for that assertion. I didn’t assert anything – you did. You said the engine was running. The article doesn’t say that. And it doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with the driver – the car was shot dozens of times… car engines aren’t bulletproof. I don’t know if the engine was running or not, but the article gives no indication either way. Talking out your ass. > [@](#): > > What visual cues can one use to identify the difference between an unconscious person and a person who is feigning unconsciousness so they can shoot and kill you? Keep in mind that if you’re wrong, you die. I won’t keep that in mind, because it’s bullshit. Cops are trained in determining whether people are threats, or are faking, and how to approach someone that might be dangerous. With multiple cops, it would be possible to minimize the risk while checking their status. > [@](#): > > The prosecutor’s refusal to seek any charges relating to the other 122 shots speaks for itself. Perhaps, perhaps not. Perhaps they’re still investigating those shots. The article doesn’t discuss them. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2015, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1777 "2015-04-14T19:25:35Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Depends on the reason. Euthanasia? Fine, shoot the dog not the person. Self defence? No difference, either you’re at risk or you’re not. There are different levels of risk, and it can be much more complicated and difficult to evaluate risk with people. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2015, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1778 "2015-04-14T19:26:12Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I didn’t assert anything > [@](#): > > I won’t keep that in mind > [@](#): > > Perhaps, perhaps not. Is there anything about this story that you _will_ actually take a position on? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2015, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1779 "2015-04-14T19:26:36Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > So you’re a medical practitioner now? In **Smapti** world, **Smapti** is an expert in law and medicine (and probably many other subjects). ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2015, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1780 "2015-04-14T19:28:44Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > So you’re a medical practitioner now? You don’t have to be an MD to know that “medical marijuana”, in all its forms, is and has never been anything other than a line of BS being pushed by snake oil peddlers and by unscrupulous types willing to take advantage of any backdoor they can find to legalize it for recreational use. (And I have _absolutely nothing_ against legalizing marijuana for recreational use, but pretending that it’s medicine in order to do so is just plain dishonest.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=88) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=90)