# Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2014, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942 "2014-10-10T07:35:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 96
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1901 "2015-04-21T00:47:45Z")
Wasn’t there a case awhile back when a plaintiff who had run from the police and subsequently been found in possession of narcotics asked a court to rule that running from the police is normal, and hence not grounds for a search? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1902 "2015-04-21T00:48:59Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No. Then cops who kill suspects for running should be prosecuted for homicide. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1903 "2015-04-21T00:50:07Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > It appears to be something like fleeing from a mountain lion. If you encounter a mountain lion in the wild, you are supposed to face it down, make yourself look big, and fight for your life if you have to, fleeing just triggers its chase-and-eat reflex. > > The police are just like that. You have to face them down, make yourself look big and convince them that you are not prey; fleeing just triggers their chase-and-subdue reflex, a primal thing that they have no control over. I think it is the badge, some kind of cave-man-brain field is generated by the badge. See post #1605 [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18278707&postcount=1605](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18278707&postcount=1605) ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1904 "2015-04-21T01:42:37Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > See post #1605 [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18278707&postcount=1605](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18278707&postcount=1605) Yes, but bear encounters are different. Mountain lion encounters are almost never accidental, you encounter one because it has been stalking you, which is similar to police encounters. You encounter a bear because it was doing its own thing and you stumbled upon it. Except in really unusual situations. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1905 "2015-04-21T02:04:58Z")
Then you must calmly explain that you are, in fact, there for the hunting. Period. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1906 "2015-04-21T03:42:19Z")
Breathless headline: [Report confirms that police killed Natasha McKenna with her hands cuffed and legs shackled](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/04/13/1377417/-Report-confirms-that-police-killed-Natasha-McKenna-with-her-hands-cuffed-and-legs-shackled?detail=email) > [@](#): > > A mentally ill woman who died after a stun gun was used on her at the Fairfax County jail in February was restrained with handcuffs behind her back, leg shackles and a mask when a sheriff’s deputy shocked her four times, incident reports obtained by The Washington Post show. [WaPo:](http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-outrageous-death-of-a-fairfax-county-jail-inmate/2015/04/14/4bcf5a8c-e226-11e4-81ea-0649268f729e_story.html) > [@](#): > > NATASHA McKENNA, the mentally ill woman who died after a struggle with sheriff’s deputies inside the Fairfax County jail in February, was neither tall nor powerfully built. She posed no risk of escape nor any serious physical threat to guards. > > Nonetheless, an elite team of six deputies, sent to extract her from her cell, was unable to control Ms. McKenna. Even after she was handcuffed and placed in leg shackles, the deputies could not force her into a restraint chair, which led to a very bad decision: As The Post’s Tom Jackman and Justin Jouvenal reported, a lieutenant shot her four times with a Taser, at point-blank range, even as her hands and feet were in restraints. > > Ms. McKenna, a 37-year-old mother, stopped breathing shortly thereafter, and her heart ceased beating. Although her heart was restarted, she died a few days later without regaining consciousness. [More details from the WaPo](http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2015/04/13/the-death-of-natasha-mckenna-in-the-fairfax-jail-the-rest-of-the-story/) Dear Jailers: Just because someone is a pain in the rear end and not cooperative, doesn’t mean you are justified in beating or torturing them with a taser when they cannot possibly hurt one of six burlies. I know you’re PO’d, but you’re also supposed to be a mature responsible adult. Act like it. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1907 "2015-04-21T07:34:57Z")
I was asked to comment on the previous post as I’ve used most of the equipment described. The big question I’m wondering is why the jailers were putting McKenna into the restraint chair. As far as I can tel, this wasn’t explained. So I’m going to guess that it was for the usual reason which is that McKenna was hurting herself. If a person’s in full restraint, they really can’t hurt other people. But they can roll around and injure themselves. So you’ll strap a person who’s doing this into a restraint chair to immobilize them. The same thing with using a taser. While it sounds violent, it is actually less likely to injure somebody than manhandling them is. A taser can temporarily immobilize a person, which makes it easy to lift them into a chair and strap them in without them struggling. Which in turn means there is less chance of anyone, including the prisoner, getting injured. That said, tasering somebody four times seems like a bad idea. Tasering is one of those things that either works or it doesn’t. If the first three times didn’t work, why try it a fourth time? You need to keep your head about you in these situations and focus on the big picture as well as the immediate struggle. That means you have to stop doing something if it isn’t working or if it isn’t worth the struggle. BigAppleBucky is right when he said that you’re supposed to act like the mature responsible adult. I don’t know the rank structure in Fairfax County but I’m going to assume the lieutenant was the guy in charge of the team of deputies. If so, he shouldn’t have been the one using the taser. He shouldn’t have been using any force himself at all. If you’re the guy in charge, you should be supervising not participating. Your job is to watch what the guy with the taser is doing while also watching how the prisoner is responding and keeping an eye on everyone else in the area. If you’re personally using a taser, you’re doing a deputy’s job rather than doing the lieutenant’s job. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1908 "2015-04-21T11:26:44Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Then cops who kill suspects for running should be prosecuted for homicide. Certainly. Find me a case where someone was shot _for_ running, not just _while_ running. Shooting a violent criminal who can’t be restrained because he’s running is fine, if done to protect the public. Anyone, police or otherwise, is allowed to use force in self defence or the defence of others. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1909 "2015-04-21T11:42:03Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Certainly. Find me a case where someone was shot _for_ running, not just _while_ running. > > Shooting a violent criminal who can’t be restrained because he’s running is fine, if done to protect the public. Anyone, police or otherwise, is allowed to use force in self defence or the defence of others. Protect the public from what? These are unarmed suspects, posing no immediate threat to anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1910 "2015-04-21T12:03:17Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Protect the public from what? These are unarmed suspects, posing no immediate threat to anyone else. If that’s the case, they shouldn’t be shot, and the police should be investigated for doing so. Are you claiming that there’s _never_ been a case where a policeman has shot someone who was a threat to others, or that they shouldn’t do so, they should allow innocents to be hurt? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1911 "2015-04-21T12:10:43Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Are you claiming that there’s _never_ been a case where a policeman has shot someone who was a threat to others, or that they shouldn’t do so, they should allow innocents to be hurt? Did I say that? We are talking about the cases that meet the criteria of this thread. Unarmed suspects, posing no immediate threat to anyone, who were subjected to inappropriate force by police without cause. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1912 "2015-04-21T14:35:49Z")
[FBI admits to misrepresenting forensic hair evidence](http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/fbi-overstated-forensic-hair-matches-in-nearly-all-criminal-trials-for-decades/2015/04/18/39c8d8c6-e515-11e4-b510-962fcfabc310_story.html) > [@](#): > > Of 28 examiners with the FBI Laboratory’s microscopic hair comparison unit, 26 overstated forensic matches in ways that favored prosecutors in more than 95 percent of the 268 trials reviewed so far ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1913 "2015-04-21T15:54:29Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If adult human beings haven’t learned the appropriate way to obey the law and respect officers of the government, then yes, they need to have some common sense beaten into them. I can but hope that one day you’re on the receiving end of the education you feel other people need. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1914 "2015-04-21T15:57:53Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > I can but hope that one day you’re on the receiving end of the education you feel other people need. If it happens, it’ll probably be because I deserved it. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1915 "2015-04-21T16:00:34Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If it happens, it’ll probably be because I deserved it. As you’re white, it probably won’t happen to you. Whether you deserve such an incident is a whole other question. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1916 "2015-04-21T17:08:28Z")
I love that a US Marshal was filmed by another bystander as he ripped the phone out of the hands of someone filming him. Welcome to a new era of accountability. > **[U.S. Marshal Rips Phone From Hands Of Recording Bystander](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/us-marshal-phone-recording_n_7108840)** > > U.S. Marshal Rips Phone From Hands Of Recording Bystander ---
**Author:** ![OwnRules](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ea666f/32.png) [@OwnRules](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OwnRules)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1917 "2015-04-21T18:19:28Z")
Follow up on the Grey case: [**Man died of spinal injury after being arrested by Baltimore police**](http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/man-died-of-spinal-injury-after-being-arrested-by-baltimore-police/2015/04/20/93014bba-e76f-11e4-9a6a-c1ab95a0600b_story.html) > [@](#): > > …Rawlings-Blake and the police commissioner said the results of an investigation would be turned over to prosecutors by May 1 to determine whether criminal charges are warranted. **Officials said it was not clear how Gray was injured or whether he was hurt during his arrest or when he was in the back of a police van used to transport suspects.** > > **Officials also were unable to answer other key questions, such as whether Gray was given prompt medical attention and whether he had done anything illegal or suspicious to justify officers detaining him** in Gilmor Homes, a cluster of red-brick public housing on Baltimore’s west side. > > **Also left unexplained is a video from a bystander showing two officers dragging what appears to be a limp suspect to a police van**. > > Gray’s attorney, William H. “Billy” Murphy Jr., called the police news conference “bizarre” and added, “We had high expectations because everyone was talking about candor, and we got opacity.” – bolding mine. Bunch of ass-covering lies if you ask me. ---
**Author:** ![OwnRules](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ea666f/32.png) [@OwnRules](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OwnRules)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1918 "2015-04-21T18:45:53Z")
**[Did you hear about the black man killed by police this month?](https://scontent-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xta1/v/t1.0-9/11127444_964087533625728_7344809720260837488_n.jpg?oh=59d08d40e81d660fc264f9e234e2efc0&oe=55A18967)** ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1919 "2015-04-21T18:51:23Z")
Did you hear about the guy who posted a link with no comment? ---
**Author:** ![OwnRules](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ea666f/32.png) [@OwnRules](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OwnRules)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942/1920 "2015-04-21T18:58:49Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Did you hear about the guy who posted a link with no comment? I believe the picture linked to is self-explanatory. If not, what, exactly, would you like me to explain? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=95) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversial-encounters-between-law-enforcement-and-civilians-the-omnibus-thread/700942.md?page=97)