The 911 calls that sent them there are all taped.
There are definitely abuses of power everywhere you go. A fairly notorious example from Australia is the Aboriginal Deaths in Custody scandal, which has been going on for a number of decades now.
However, my impression - and it is just an impression - is that the level of untouchability of American police officers is much much higher. When I hear about the police acting badly here, it typically seems to be while tucked away in the safety of their own police stations, not out in the street, and the mentality is more “hey, nobody’s ever going to know” rather than “well if they do know, who cares, who are the courts going to believe out of us and you?”
Here’s a recent example. None of the police officers concerned got away with their behaviour in this case.
I’m not going to insist on a specific cite to back up your original assertion because even though it’s not quite true it’s closer to true than I had thought.
I wonder why the courts bothered to sentence people like the bottle boy, then? If they had so many real known criminals to deal with and make an example of, why ruin the life of this boy? It’s a really unusually long sentence for such a minor crime for a first offender, one that he admitted (which usually helps), and there’s no evidence he was involved in anything else in the riots.
And I do suspect his life has been ruined or substantially damaged; it’s extremely hard to get a job in the UK if you have a criminal record and his sentence means his won’t be exunged for several years - and then it will still show up on CRB checks that are used for such mundance jobs as call centre work as well as work with children.
There definitely are some similarities, ike you said before. But I think part of the cause of the riots was the new ConDem govt putting a lot of changes in place which disproportionately affected young people, like getting rid of EMA. It wasn’t just people taking the chance to smash things up; if that was all that was needed, then it would be happening every weekend.
Also, Mark Duggan’s shooting was extremely unusual. Per capita shooting of civilians by police are way lower in the UK. I mean, the armed police who responded didn’t even shoot the bastards who decapitated the soldier in Woolwich, refusing to make martyrs of them like they wanted.
Now *that’s * job security!
Now, to be fair, their wrists are probably red and sore from all the slaps.
There seems to be an epidemic of cop-on-cop violence:
Florida cops accused of attacking ex-NYPD officer helping her son
And for the money quote:
"“NYPD, I know my rights,” Aquino says while laying facedown in a grassy area.
“We’re a little different in Florida,” one deputy replies."
Short answer to set an example to discourage others from doing the same.
This article [ Night the row about riot sentencing was reignited | The Independent | The Independent ] has one of the magistrates specifically confirming that:
“Mr Ikram, who sits at Camberwell Green magistrates’ court … told an audience of Londoners that the “clear signal” sent out by judges helped quell the gratuitous violence.”
He notes that most of the appeals against sentences failed which, arguably, justified the original sentencing.
The first article notes quite a few cases (including your bottle boy) who had harsh sentences for minor offences. This article [ Facebook UK riots inciters told their 4-year sentences WERE fair | Daily Mail Online ] notes how several appeals against sentencing failed.
I think the establishment are (still) always aware of the Broadwater Farm Estate (Inner City - North London) riot of 1985. A black woman, Cynthia Jarrett, died (of natural causes - heart failure) during a police search of her home. They had arrested her son on suspicion of various crimes. He was later cleared of them all.
In the riots which erupted later a policeman - Keith Blakelock - was caught by a mob, attacked, murdered and almost beheaded. No one has ever been successfully convicted of the crime. Winston Silcott was initially convicted but after a few years freed on appeal. Keith Blakelock is still a byword for abhorrent and totally unacceptable violence against the police.
Britain is used to public order disturbances and violence but when people start rioting to the extent people die [ 5 deaths links to the Duggan disturbances ] something is done about it.
Plus there was the sheer, cynical opportunism in the Duggan Riots. Most of the rioters had zero interest in the Duggan case.
TCMF-2L
I guess convicting people for murder, despite the fact they weren’t there, is “something” :rolleyes:
There’s Florida’s state motto right there. It should be written across the top of the state seal.
At the bottom, it would say:
(and not in a good way.)
Is that a reference to good old Winston Silcott? He’s an interesting case.
In 1979 he had just served 6 months for stabbing a man. Then he was twice tried for the murder of a musician. First trial failed to reach a verdict, second trial acquitted him. The victim, by the way, was stabbed.
Then, after another successful conviction for possessing an illegal flick knife, he was next put on trial for the murder of a man at a party. A man murdered by stabbing. That was 1984. Winston eventually, after first insisting it was just a fist fight, admitted the stabbing but claimed it was self defence. Witnesses had him handing over the knife to a friend and saying “He (the victim) deserved it.”
Then comes along the Broadwater Farm riots in 1985 and the rare occurrence of a British policeman knifed to death. Local ‘face’ Winston, just out of jail on bail for the party murder, with repeated convictions for knife related offences as well as the murder fitted the bill. The police were soon onto him and eventually he was convicted.
Was it a “clean” investigation and “safe” conviction? Absolutely no. But British justice prevailed (for Winston) who got the PC Blakemore murder conviction overturned (although he remained in jail for the earlier murder) and he also, eventually, got a tasty pay out of compensation. £60,000 which was four times the amount the widow of the dead policeman got. It was just £15,000 for the widow and the three sons.
Since his release Winston has both worked with the police to try and reduce violent crime but has also continued to clock up convictions. Usually for shoplifting.
Was the convicted murderer not at Broadwater Farm during the riots? I wasn’t there so couldn’t be as certain as you. He denies being there. But he would, wouldn’t he?
Others suggest he was there. But who are you to believe?
TCMF-2L
I did mention “making an example of” in my post. I do not think a man with no criminal record and on such a minor charge is a great target for “making an example of.” When part of the reason for the riots was distrust of the legal system (really, if it was just "Yay, riots! It would happen more often than twice in thirty years) it doesn’t do the legal system any favours when it demonstrates that yes, it’s true, they can’t be trusted.
His sentence was longer than many rape sentences, ffs.
I assume the other poster is referring to joint enterprise,which genuinely has resulted in people being sent to prison for crimes that they didn’t take part in. It’s intended as a tool against gang violence but some of the cases beggar belief.
…the 911 call showed that a snowfight didn’t happen? They must have impressive telephones in that district.
OK, I didn’t read through the pdf, but does the bolded part mean that 28% of all males (age 18-52) in England have at least one previous conviction? That seems extraordinarily high. What I can find for the US is 8.6%. http://paa2011.princeton.edu/papers/111687
I think it means 28% of all males facing prosecution, not all males in general. Makes sense given the number of repeat offenders.
Actually, I’m wrong. A quick Google shows that the percentage above is right, remarkably. But it does include extremely minor crimes and crimes from many years ago, including those committed as a child.
That article mentions what I was talking about above, with how badly that young man’s life will be affected. Not all criminal records have equal effect, but such a long sentence, and the connection to rioting, will make him look really bad. He’ll never be able to work in a job with children or elderly or disabled people and never have any responsibility for money. That doesn’t leave many jobs.
If you read this official UK Government document from 2011 [ https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/217474/criminal-histories-bulletin.pdf ] the eye popping statistics are:
For England and Wales (ignoring the Scots and Irish who are probably a bad influence):
***15 per cent of people between the ages of 10 and 52 in England and Wales in 2006 are estimated to have had at least one conviction for a standard list1 offence. The equivalent figure for males is 24 per cent and for females 6 per cent.
33 per cent of males born in 1953 had been convicted of at least one standard list offence before the age of 53. Just over half of these had been convicted on only one occasion and 18 per cent had been convicted more than 5 times.
9 per cent of females born in 1953 had been convicted of at least one standard list offence before the age of 53. Three-quarters of these had been convicted on only one occasion and 5 per cent had been convicted more than 5 times.***
The study notes “only a few” males had more than 20 convictions!
It also notes that since the 1980s there has been an increasing use of Police Cautions so the number of recorded crimes is dropping.
TCMF-2L
My emphasis added.
SciFiSam
For the record I think some of the Duggan Riot sentencing was too draconian.
However, while clearly having a criminal record will be a burden and will possibly be an insurmountable burden, it isn’t an absolute bar to working with children, elderly or disabled. Only sex crimes would do that. Which is a good thing I think.
Also it isn’t a bar to working in finance although some roles would be excluded. Most of these issues can (in theory) be negotiated during interview.
TCMF-2L
Has this one been discussed yet?
Un fucking believable
See my post #702 ;).
I’m not sure how well it fits, but I thought to leave a link to an old thread I started in 2009.
Tennessee state trooper fowards a racist email to all his co-workers, get suspended for 15 days
I updated it last year when I got curious on what happened to the cop. Wasn’t too surprised by what I found.