Controversial encounters between law-enforcement and civilians - the omnibus thread

You are really blurring together “jail” and “prison” here. They are really different things–he wasn’t even serving time in jail. He was being held. I am sure there are tons and tons of rules in prison that don’t apply to jail, and tons of rules that apply to convicted criminals serving time in jail that don’t apply to someone who is merely being held. And I’m also sure the rules have changes a great deal in the years since he left. I’m sitting right now in a classroom where cellphones were contraband ten years ago–now they are not just acceptable, but very nearly required. If you told me that they let people keep their phones in the holding cell–the drunk tank–at the city or county lock-up, I wouldn’t consider that an extraordinary claim. It seems like a good way to keep people occupied and pacified.

And he did stop fucking up–he was in prison a decade ago, committed his crimes almost two decades ago. There’s a lot of evidence that he did his time, and went on to be a law-abiding citizen for years and years. The arrest may suggest otherwise, but if he wasn’t even charged and we have no idea what it was, it’s pretty weak evidence that he “continued to fuck up”.

I think you are really clinging onto a “just world” perspective that just doesn’t apply here. What he did, in this specific case, wasn’t really that dumb, and there’s little evidence that he’s done anything else dumb since he was convicted of a crime in 2002. And while I agree that sometimes the world just sucks, in this case it only sucks because of something utterly arbitrary and man-made.

What are some of the rules in jail that don’t apply to people being held? (The rule against contraband like cell phones don’t appear to be one of those).

Regards,
Shodan

The requirement to search someone before they are put in the cell?

I don’t know, because I’ve never been held in jail. So I have no idea what is standard. This guy doesn’t appear to have been arrested in almost 20 years, so I don’t know why you would expect him to have a crystal-clear idea of what was allowed and what wasn’t. If I were arrested and no one asked for my cell phone and no one told me I wasn’t allowed to have my cell phone, I might easily believe it was allowed. Why wouldn’t I?

You said this -

So maybe you aren’t sure.

I suppose it would be too glib to say that ignorance of the law is no excuse.

Cite.
The booking officers did not testify, so we don’t know if the proper procedures were followed, and he apparently wasn’t searched well enough to find his cell phone. So it isn’t clear if he didn’t know that cell phones were contraband. I did some superficial Googling to see if there are big signs on the jail house walls saying “No Cell Phones - This Means You” and I couldn’t find anything.

OTOH -

If he didn’t know the phone was contraband, why did he deny that it was his? I suspect the answer is much the same as for many of these kinds of questions - he isn’t the sharpest knife in the drawer.
Also

So Nash’s attorneys didn’t try to argue that his conviction was invalid because he didn’t know it was against the law to have a cell phone - possibly on the “ignorance is no excuse” basis. They just argued that 12 years was too harsh. FWIW.

Regards,
Shodan

That’s because you can’t argue that the conviction was “wrong” on an appeal–that would invalidate the idea of a trial. You have to argue that the law was misapplied or that you didn’t have adequate representation or whatever.

It appears he didn’t know it was contraband but when they confronted him, he back-pedaled and tried to distance himself. Turns out that wasn’t a bad instinct.

There aren’t, at least with regard to the latter, and that would be relevant to this scenario.

Here’s one random data point that will definitively answer these questions once and for all. Once when I was young and dashing, I was held in a police station cell while awaiting the breathalyzer guy to arrive.* I was not searched, nothing was confiscated, and I do not recall any signs informing me of what I was or wasn’t allowed to have on my person while being held. There was an officer keeping an eye on the detainees, and at one point a guy mumbled some long incoherent drunken question, to which the officer yelled “HEY, SHUT THE FUCK UP!” in reply. He seemed kind of like a jerk, so I did not ask him to charge my phone.

  • The breathalyzer revealed nothing except that a certain young police officer’s field sobriety test was a tad overzealous. I was released without charges.

OK, I’m obsessing over this Nash case. My outrage is based primarily on the social/moral argument that 12 years and $5,000 is grossly disproportionate to the offense. As I stated earlier, I accept that a legal process was followed and that the penalty was within the range of penalties allowed by the law. I find this to be an example of a capricious and unjust system. Even if Nash had ample notice that he shouldn’t have a phone, and even if he had a prior criminal conviction, I fail to see how society’s interest is served by incarcerating him for 12 years over this.

But, because I’m an insomniac, I wanted to see what kind of operation they might be running in Newton County, MS. Even though I think a law that provides for this kind of punishment is fucking nuts, irrespective of who’s to blame for the phone being in the cell, I think Nash’s case looks more egregious in light of some facts about Newton County and its law enforcement.

First, Newton County is very rural. The population in 2010 was just shy of 22,000 people, spread out over 578 square miles (Wiki). Nash was arrested by the Newton PD in the City of Newton, population 3,300 (Wiki) and was then taken to the Newton Co. Jail in the town of Decatur, population 1,800 (Wiki). The Newton Co. Sheriff’s Office and Jail are in a tiny building at the end of what appears to be a gravel road (Google Maps).

Now, of course this isn’t to say that rural cops are inherently less professional than urban cops. However, it does suggest to me that the county might have inadequate resources to put into training staff and maintaining the jail.

My suspicion that the county might be under-resourced is strengthened by the fact that the newly elected sheriff earned praise this January for hiring more part-time deputies and changing the department schedules so that the department could provide 24-hour coverage for the first time (cite, cite). When Nash was arrested in 2018, we can assume the department had something less than 24-hour coverage.

Nor is the department blessed with a large budget. for example, in 2016, Newton Co established a special team to respond to things like school shootings. It was made up of officers from departments across the county. Then-Sheriff Jackie Knight had to turn to donations from businesses and individuals to come up with the money to equip the team. At the time this article was written, Knight had collected $20,000 of the $40,000 he said was needed.

A less-than-full-time sheriff’s department, in a tiny county, with inadequate funds, housed in a glorified pole barn, is not the kind of operation I feel comfortable assuming has implemented thorough and consistent intake procedures.

Some additional incidents are illustrative of an indifferently managed jail. In 2014, an inmate was found hanged in his cell. The jail does not appear to be a particularly large facility. That the staff were not able to keep a detainee from killing himself indicates a lack of attention and adequate staff.

In another case, a man held in pretrial detention between September 2012 and May 2013 sued the County for denying him his medication and adequate hygiene while he was in custody. The man, who was HIV positive, claimed he was not allowed access to any of his medication for about the first six weeks of his detention. After that, he received the medication, but not regularly or as prescribed. At one hearing, the Newton County Sheriff’s Department provided records of medication administration, but the records were “not accompanied by an affidavit authenticating them or establishing their admissibility as records kept in the ordinary course of business”. The department offered no reason for their failure to provide the man adequate hygiene articles. (Cite.) I can’t find any information on how the case ended. But if the allegations are true, the case provides further evidence of a badly managed detention facility, which in this case provided substandard care to a detainee and was unable to produce adequate documentation of its operations.

The Sheriff at the time of Nash’s detention was a man named Jackie Knight, a guy who thinks non-Christians are going to Hell and who fired members of his department who ran against him for sheriff not once, but twice.

So. An understaffed, badly-managed, backwater county sheriff’s department run by a vindictive religious zealot took custody of a guy who had been picked up for disorderly conduct and disturbing the peace, and – whoopsie! – the guy ended up in his cell with a mobile phone. Yes, the guy had a prior conviction, but he hadn’t been in trouble in over a decade. Now, maybe this guy got what he deserved, or maybe he’s yet another black guy put through the ringer of a fundamentally unjust, thoughtless, and cruel machine.

Would that the police were as thorough and attentive to detail as Defensive Indifference.

Why shouldn’t we if we can? If some kid is weaving in and out of traffic on his skateboard, getting hit by a car is an obvious consequence of his stupidity, but that doesn’t make me blameless if I don’t try to avoid hitting him. What purpose is served by taking 12 years of this guys life away at tax payers expense. I guess he learns not to bring his cell phone to prison, but he probably learned that within the first two hours after asking the guard to charge it.

i.e. he’s not me so fuck him.

Ignoring the straw man argument that there should be no rules against cell phones in prison, the above is a crystal clear illustration of the thought process that leads to the events in this thread. The guy is a punk. Its just a matter of time before he ends up dead or in prison. I just got him his just deserts early. Who cares? Its not like his life had value or anything.

Thank you :slight_smile:

The Newton County Sheriff’s Department also seems to have a tough time keeping people inside the jail. In 2012, an inmate claimed to have injured himself and was taken to a local hospital. When the deputies arrived at the hospital, the inmate “opened the door and jumped out and took off,” according to Sheriff Knight. It’s unclear from the article what door he opened – the door to the vehicle has was being transported in, the door to the ER, or what. In any case, this seems like sloppy prisoner management. To be fair, the deputies did recapture him in a few hours.

Another inmate was more persistent. On 11/3/2015, one Gary Goss escaped from the jail by climbing through a hole in the ceiling. He was recaptured on 11/5/2015. Knight had razor wire installed to block the hole Goss escaped from, but this didn’t deter our intrepid criminal, who escaped again on 11/24/2015. I’m not sure how long he was out that time, but at some point he was recaptured and returned to jail. The hole in the ceiling was apparently still not fixed, though, as Goss escaped through the same hole a third time on 4/18/15. Sheriff Knight gave his solemn pledge that Goss’s third escape would be his last, though! He was quoted as saying, with a stubborn optimism, “We’re gonna put up rebar to where they can’t get to the place where they can jump through the outside.” Knight also vowed to put Goss in a “lockdown cell”, which is presumably the cell that doesn’t have a hole leading to the outside.

Tight ship these guys run. True professionals.

Cites below because I was too lazy to code them cleverly:

11/3/14 escape.
11/5/14 recapture

11/24/14 escape.

4/18/15 escape. Note this article says Goss escaped in October 2014 as well as November 2014. That may be a mistake. I think they’re misreporting the early November escape as happening in October. It’s understandable. Who can keep track of such things?
4/23/15 recapture.

Footnote: Goss apparently skipped out on parole and made it to Jackson County, Florida, where he was arrested in 2018 on drug and gun charges. (Cite.)

I think it is time for me to go attend the police academy and become a LEO, because what could be a more cushy job than one where you can get away with making other people pay dearly for my own mistakes.

This is more a case of misuse of LEO resources, but I think it fits here since we don’t have an omnibus stupid educator thread.

At Ball State University, a professor for some reason asked a student in the back of the class to take an empty seat in the front. The student refused. From what I gather, the professor and student remained calm during the whole exchange. But for some reason, the professor called campus cops. To their credit, the cops apparently showed up, asked some questions, and left. They managed to get through the encounter without choking, tazing, or shooting the student, so kudos to them. The professor, however needs to be shitcanned with all speed. (Assuming the story is accurate)

https://www.kmov.com/news/professor-calls-police-after-student-refuses-to-switch-seats-in/article_c66a1ce2-3ecd-11ea-83d0-cb1d5438d335.html

This seemed so bizarre that I clicked the link. Guess what?

A horrific case of child abuse

I can’r even imagine how terrible that must have been.

And the father, NYPD Officer Michael Valva, 15 years on the force, has been suspended without pay.

In Prince George’s County MD, police responded to a report of a driver who had struck several other vehicles. Police arrested the driver and smelled what they believed to be PCP coming from the car. Now we’ve known since at least 1991 that PCP gives criminals superpowers, so the cops’ next move was a mistake. They handcuffed the suspect and placed him in the front seat of a cruiser with the seat belt fastened. One officer got in the front seat of the cruiser with the suspect while other officers waited for a drug identification expert to arrive.

It’s not clear what happened next, but the officers waiting outside the car heard a struggle and gunshots. The suspect was shot several times and died later at a hospital.

I’m not a cop, of course. But putting a suspect in the front seat of the cruiser and then getting in next to him sounds like not a great idea.

Aye; that doesn’t sound like standard police procedure to me.

ETA: Oh… wait… Prince George’s County… ok, yeah; that might be standard police procedure there.

They made video of their kids shivering on the floor of the garage?

And they taped themselves discussing how they were abusing the kids?

That’s some pile of stupid, PhD (Piled higher and Deeper).

What did they think they were thinking?

Many departments don’t have rear cages. It sounds like a really bad idea to me but you work with what they give you. When there is no cage it’s generally considered safer to put them in the front seat rather than behind the driver. It’s not ideal but it is standard procedure in much of the country. I don’t know for sure if that’s the case with that department.