# controversy over allowing woman in coma to die **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 14, 2003, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversy-over-allowing-woman-in-coma-to-die/207343 "2003-10-14T09:11:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![lavenderviolet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/cdc98d/32.png) [@lavenderviolet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lavenderviolet)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversy-over-allowing-woman-in-coma-to-die/207343/1 "2003-10-14T09:11:36Z")
I have been hearing bits and pieces about this woman who has apparently(?) been in a lengthy coma, Terri Schiavo. Her parents want her to keep getting tube feedings while her husband wants her to be allowed to die. Story on cnn about it: [http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/09/23/comatose.woman.ap/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/09/23/comatose.woman.ap/index.html) The parents have a webpage at [http://www.terrisfight.org](http://www.terrisfight.org) where they insist that she is responsive and that she just needs better rehab care to improve. What would you say is the justification for not letting the family try to rehab her before they remove her feeding tube? If she was given therapy, either she would get better or she wouldn’t, and it seems to me then the controversy would be settled. If Terri is in a coma it seems unlikely that she is aware enough to be suffering from staying alive so why not let them try to get her to eat on her own? I’m curious to see what others think of this case. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversy-over-allowing-woman-in-coma-to-die/207343/2 "2003-10-14T12:07:36Z")
The woman doesn’t appear to be “in a coma.” She appears to be conscious and aware of her environment and responsive to other people. According to the website, “Terri smiles, laughs and cries. Terri recognizes voices and responds. At times, she vocalizes sounds, trying in her best way to speak.” Let’s not kill her. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversy-over-allowing-woman-in-coma-to-die/207343/3 "2003-10-14T12:20:19Z")
Yeah. She doesn’t seem to be quite in a “vegetative state” to me either. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversy-over-allowing-woman-in-coma-to-die/207343/4 "2003-10-14T13:12:34Z")
There’s a big difference, too, between being allowed to die and being killed. Termination of medical care is one thing. What we’re talking about here, though, is food and water. Dying this way is very painful and inhumane. She should be cared for. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversy-over-allowing-woman-in-coma-to-die/207343/5 "2003-10-14T13:17:28Z")
Some severely brain-damaged people can make facial expressions and noises even though all higher function has been destroyed. Desperate families sometimes interpret this as evidence of consciousness and responsiveness when it really isn’t. It’s not much more than reflex and primitive stimulus-response reaction. Without knowing more about the facts of the case, I don’t think we can accept either side as presented. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversy-over-allowing-woman-in-coma-to-die/207343/6 "2003-10-14T13:30:22Z")
At the risk of sounding callous, who is picking up the tab? Too bad this woman got dealt a bad hand. But IMO at present she is consuming far too many resources - both monetary and emotional. Just because existence can be prolonged through technology and expensive care does not mean that it should be. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversy-over-allowing-woman-in-coma-to-die/207343/7 "2003-10-14T14:26:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dinsdale \* > \*\*At the risk of sounding callous, who is picking up the tab? > \*\* According to the website, the husband got a settlement of about three quarters of a million dollars which was explicitly designated by the courts for the care of his wife. As she has no will and is obviously not in a condition to make, he would inherit all of that money should she die legally. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dinsdale \* > \*\*Too bad this woman got dealt a bad hand. But IMO at present she is consuming far too many resources - both monetary and emotional. Just because existence can be prolonged through technology and expensive care does not mean that it should be. \*\* I pray to whatever god or gods there may be that no one like you will ever be in a position to make such a life-or-death decision for me or anyone I care deeply about. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversy-over-allowing-woman-in-coma-to-die/207343/8 "2003-10-14T14:30:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TVAA \* > \*\*Some severely brain-damaged people can make facial expressions and noises even though all higher function has been destroyed. \*\* Yes, they’re called “liberals.” > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TVAA \* > \*\*Desperate families sometimes interpret this as evidence of consciousness and responsiveness when it really isn’t. It’s not much more than reflex and primitive stimulus-response reaction. > > Without knowing more about the facts of the case, I don’t think we can accept either side as presented. \*\* The facts of the case are pretty clear. She does in fact show awareness of her surroundings and responds to people. This isn’t a borderline case. She may be severely brain damaged, but she is \* not \* a vegetable. Let’s not kill her. ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversy-over-allowing-woman-in-coma-to-die/207343/9 "2003-10-14T14:34:28Z")
**Polecat** - That website was set up by her parents, who are desperate for her _not_ to be in a coma, and to be responsive. Unless you’re suggesting that the husband wants her to die just so he can get the money. I think without talking to her doctors, there is no way to say that the facts are clear. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversy-over-allowing-woman-in-coma-to-die/207343/10 "2003-10-14T14:34:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by LonesomePolecat \* > \*\*I pray to whatever god or gods there may be that no one like you will ever be in a position to make such a life-or-death decision for me or anyone I care deeply about. \*\* Well, that’s a safe bet, whatever gods you choose to pray to. I “pray” that you are able to foot the bill for your prolonged care. And I hope you derive some satisfaction over having your worthless continued existence dominate the lives of those you used to love. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversy-over-allowing-woman-in-coma-to-die/207343/11 "2003-10-14T15:32:35Z")
It’s a tough, tough thing to declare someone’s life worthless. A bad thing, too, to have someone’s death on your hands. I don’t think you need to believe in God to agree that playing him is a bad idea. In this case, what we’re talking about is letting someone die of thirst. If you do it to a newborn, it’s murder. It is a far cry indeed from termination of medical care or life support. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversy-over-allowing-woman-in-coma-to-die/207343/12 "2003-10-14T15:55:21Z")
I agree - euthanasia would be far more humane. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversy-over-allowing-woman-in-coma-to-die/207343/13 "2003-10-14T17:39:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by LonesomePolecat \* > \*\*The facts of the case are pretty clear. She does in fact show awareness of her surroundings and responds to people. This isn’t a borderline case. She may be severely brain damaged, but she is \* not \* a vegetable. Let’s not kill her. \*\* Individuals with no higher brain activity (operating solely on subcortical reflexes) have responses to noises and interactions like voices, hand stroking, and bright lights. The problem is that there’s no “awareness” of these things in any mental sense. The body is merely responding to stimuli in a very basic and elementary sense. It does not imply consciousness, the ability to feel pain, emotions, the ability to recognize loved ones, or any other kind of humanity. Prick the body with a pin, and it might flinch away, but the mind feels nothing. There _is no more mind_. Do you have any idea how difficult it is for medical staff to convince grieving families that the behaviors they perceive as responses from their loved one are just reflexes? Nurses and doctors are with the patient constantly – they can tell what things the patient responds to, and they’re not blinded by desperation and love. ---
**Author:** ![XJETGIRLX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9fc29f/32.png) [@XJETGIRLX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XJETGIRLX)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversy-over-allowing-woman-in-coma-to-die/207343/14 "2003-10-14T17:58:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SisterCoyote \* > Unless you’re suggesting that the husband wants her to die just so he can get the money. I’d put my money on that statement being true. The circumstances surrounding her initial collapse have always been described as ‘mysterious’; they never really determined what caused her condition. I submit, for your perusal, an interesting document. This is an [affadavit](http://www.cnsnews.com/pdf/2003/aff2.pdf) from one of Terri’s former nurses. A few brief excerpts from the affadavit: > [@](#): > > \*“Terri spoke on a regular basis while in my presence, saying such things as “mommy,” and “help me.” “Help me” was, in fact, one of her most frequent utterances. I heard her say it hundreds of times.” > > … > > “I made numerous entries into the nursing notes in her chart, stating verbatim what she said and her various behaviors, but by my next on-duty shift, the notes would be deleted from her chart. Every time I made a positive entry about any responsiveness of Terri’s someone would remove it after my shift ended. Michael always demanded to see her chart as soon as he arrived, and would take it in her room with him.” > > … > > "Throughout my time at Palm Gardens, Michael Schiavo was focused on Terri’s death. Michael would say “When is she going to die?”, “Has she died yet?” and “When is that bitch gonna die?” > > … > > "Anytime Terri would be sick, like with a UTI or fluid buildup in her lungs, colds, or pneumonia, Michael would be visibly excited, thrilled even, hoping that she would die. He would say something like, “Hallelujah! You’ve made my day!” \* I’ve been following this case on and off for many years now, and all indicators point towards the husband looking to do her in for the remainder of the settlement money. There’s not nearly enough left for it to be worth his time at this point, but I suspect he’s still pushing for her death to cover his own ass now. He’s got a mistress on the side, already had a kid with her and another one on the way. ---
**Author:** ![XJETGIRLX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9fc29f/32.png) [@XJETGIRLX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XJETGIRLX)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversy-over-allowing-woman-in-coma-to-die/207343/15 "2003-10-14T18:12:58Z")
This case is just altogether disgusting no matter which way you look at it. Salient points: Terri collapsed over _ten years ago_, and has not, at any point, received any kind of therapy whatsoever. No attempts at therapy were ever even allowed by her husband. How can we know what kind of recovery she may have been capable of making if no attempt was ever made? Michael Schiavo claims it was never his wife’s intent to be kept under this standard of living, however she did not have a living will. He claims he is fighting for what she would have wanted, and has so far successfully fought for the right to end her life. Without a living will, though, how can we truly know what her intentions may have been? Should not the courts err on the side of life in a situation like this? Do we now open ourselves up to the possibility of fighting to terminate those with what we may consider a ‘lesser quality of life’ than our own, whether or not they can give voice to their own opinion? Also, another interesting document regarding the case showing a breakdown of just where the [$700,000.00](http://www.terrisfight.org/downloads/Money.pdf) originally awarded has gone. Keep in mind, though that this article was written in 2001, and there have been many subsequent court dates since, so I doubt there’s much of anything left from the remainder of the settlement. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversy-over-allowing-woman-in-coma-to-die/207343/16 "2003-10-14T20:10:36Z")
[Another article](http://www.tampatrib.com/MGAPXAVDRLD.html) I’m torn on this one. On the one hand, the woman has been in a coma for ten years. On the other, it’s not like she can’t breathe on her own. They’re talking about starving her to death, which could take about two weeks. I understand the parents are petitioning for a divorce from Michael, which means they would take over as guardians. I think they’re a little desperate to see any sign of improvement in their daughter, but how many people recover from a coma after that long? Yes, I know there was a man earlier this year who woke up after what, 12 years or so? But it’s not like it’s an every day occurrence. I guess a distinction has to be made as to whether Terri has passed beyond “existing” to “living.” I think I’m going to depend on the doctors to make this decision, since they are not biased like the parents. But does that still give them the right to starve her to death? This is a tough one. ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversy-over-allowing-woman-in-coma-to-die/207343/17 "2003-10-14T20:31:09Z")
This is why I will be sure to have a DNR on file if at all possible. ---
**Author:** ![XJETGIRLX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9fc29f/32.png) [@XJETGIRLX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XJETGIRLX)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversy-over-allowing-woman-in-coma-to-die/207343/18 "2003-10-14T20:53:00Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by ivylass_ > On the one hand, the woman has been in a coma for ten years. Actually, that’s a contestable point. She laughs, talks, makes sounds, and turns her head to follow movement. I’d hardly call that being in a coma. You can see videos of her taken by doctors and hospital staff [here](http://www.terrisfight.org/downloads/index.html). Definitely a call to think about a living will, though. ---
**Author:** ![XJETGIRLX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9fc29f/32.png) [@XJETGIRLX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XJETGIRLX)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversy-over-allowing-woman-in-coma-to-die/207343/19 "2003-10-14T20:54:50Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by ivylass_ > On the one hand, the woman has been in a coma for ten years. Actually, that’s a contestable point. She laughs, talks, makes sounds, and turns her head to follow movement. I’d hardly call that being in a coma. You can see videos of her taken by doctors and hospital staff [here](http://www.terrisfight.org/downloads/index.html). > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by ivylass_ > I think I’m going to depend on the doctors to make this decision, since they are not biased like the parents. I wouldn’t be too sure about that one, either: [Conflict of Interest Charged in Florida Euthanasia Case](http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=/Culture/archive/200309/CUL20030917c.html) Definitely a call to think about a living will, though. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2003, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversy-over-allowing-woman-in-coma-to-die/207343/20 "2003-10-14T21:02:31Z")
Yeah - that affadavit sure seals the matter. No reason a fired employee would say anything bad about anyone. Heck - it is a notarized document. It has to be true! Yet, for some reason, despite the husband’s repeated publicly stated hatred for his wife, his unambiguous desire for monetary gain, and the wife’s clear evidence of sentience, and with the death nurse patrolling the hallways, removal of the feeding tube has repeatedly been authorized. Yep, the courts are wrong, and the care facility is in on the plot. No one is in the right except the poor fired nurse, the parents who are viewing this objectively, and their dedicated attorney working “nearly” pro bono. And the man is clearly a demon for having a relationship with another woman over the past decade plus. What a beast! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/controversy-over-allowing-woman-in-coma-to-die/207343.md?page=2)