# Conveniently forgotten historical facts **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 26, 2009, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conveniently-forgotten-historical-facts/501087 "2009-06-26T17:07:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![SlowMindThinking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@SlowMindThinking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlowMindThinking)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conveniently-forgotten-historical-facts/501087/141 "2009-07-07T15:11:48Z")
> [@BlinkingDuck](#): > > Here here! > > When Germany annexed all of Czechoslovakia, Chamberlain changed his tune and became hostile to Germany. He started the preparation for war then. He played hardball with Germany and declared war in 1939 when they attacked Poland. > > The man misjudged a situation but rapidly changed his behavior when he saw he was wrong. For that, he is maligned throughout history. In the 70’s, I was taught that he followed appeasement up through the annexation, and then changed his approach, but it was too late to be effective. He was criticized for being to soft early, not for changing his mind nor was the fact that he changed tactics ignored. Is that not what is taught now? ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conveniently-forgotten-historical-facts/501087/142 "2009-07-07T15:14:49Z")
> [@SlowMindThinking](#): > > In the 70’s, I was taught that he followed appeasement up through the annexation, and then changed his approach, but it was too late to be effective. He was criticized for being to soft early, not for changing his mind nor was the fact that he changed tactics ignored. Is that not what is taught now? What I was taught, though I am an old geezer and things may have changed, is that Chamberlain was a wuss. He was soft all the way and the people of England pushed him aside for someone with guts. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conveniently-forgotten-historical-facts/501087/143 "2009-07-07T15:18:36Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Is it really an invasion if you invite them over? Probably. As mentioned earlier in this thread, the Soviet Union did invade Afghanistan in 1979. What I’ve heard, possibly here, is that by appeasing Hitler, Chamberlain wanted to buy some time so his army would be ready by the time the (inevitable) war happened. He did pursue a policy of rearmament at the same time as his policy of appeasement. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conveniently-forgotten-historical-facts/501087/144 "2009-07-07T15:33:32Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > What I’ve heard, possibly here, is that by appeasing Hitler, Chamberlain wanted to buy some time so his army would be ready by the time the (inevitable) war happened. He did pursue a policy of rearmament at the same time as his policy of appeasement. Germany was also arming at the time, and grew immeasurably stronger as a result of gaining the Sudetenland, the Skoda Works, and the Czech gold reserves. Chamberlain appeased Germany because he thought he could avoid war, and didn’t care about the moral dimension of sacrificing another country to Nazi occupation. He was wrong, and he deservedly pays the price in terms of his historical reputation. ---
**Author:** ![Estilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conveniently-forgotten-historical-facts/501087/145 "2009-07-07T15:39:24Z")
> [@SlowMindThinking](#): > > So you are a nationalist for every State that is not the US? (Rome, for example, claimed only 3 years without warfare in around 1000 years of history, which sadly enough, probably does not set the record for “unrelentingly” drenching “hands in the blood of innocents”.) Off topic, do you have a cite for this? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conveniently-forgotten-historical-facts/501087/146 "2009-07-07T16:18:06Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I believe their point is that the United States, for all its imperfections, is far from the most bloody-handed of nations. In the 20th century it was certainly in the top 5. Three million plus in Vietnam alone, all the Cold War paranoia aiding and abetting in South America, Indonesia etc. Totally and completely outclassed by China, Germany and the USSR though. ---
**Author:** ![De\_La\_Rue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@De\_La\_Rue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/De_La_Rue)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conveniently-forgotten-historical-facts/501087/147 "2009-07-07T16:21:52Z")
> [@MadTheSwine](#): > > That is a big WOW! > > Tyler was born in 1790 and has two grandchildren still living..219 years later. > > From Wiki > “As of 2009, Tyler has two living grandsons through his son Lyon Gardiner Tyler (1853-1935). Lyon Gardiner Tyler, Jr., was born in 1924, and Harrison Ruffin Tyler was born in 1928.” > > Lyon fathered his last at age 75! Go Lyon! Well, when you have a son at age 63 and he has sons in his seventies, stuff like this can happen. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conveniently-forgotten-historical-facts/501087/148 "2009-07-07T17:06:15Z")
Re: the US acquisition of the Panama Canal…I took a cruise to the Canal last year, and in the days approaching arrival at the Canal, the ship’s on-board television would run (repeatedly) any documentaries they could get their hands on concerning the canal’s construction – from such wild-eyed radical sources as A&E and The History Channel. All of them were quite open and candid about TR’s and the US role in the Panama revolution. So it’s not exactly a big secret. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conveniently-forgotten-historical-facts/501087/149 "2009-07-07T17:17:00Z")
> [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](#): > > Chamberlain appeased Germany because he thought he could avoid war, and didn’t care about the moral dimension of sacrificing another country to Nazi occupation. He was wrong, and he deservedly pays the price in terms of his historical reputation. Without _necessarily_ differing from your assessment, Churchill put a kinder spin on it. [QUOTE=Winston Churchill’s eulogy for Chamberlain] It fell to Neville Chamberlain in one of the supreme crises of the world to be contradicted by events, to be disappointed in his hopes, and to be deceived and cheated by a wicked man. But what were these hopes in which he was disappointed? What were these wishes in which he was frustrated? What was that faith that was abused? They were surely among the most noble and benevolent instincts of the human heart–the love of peace, the toil for peace, the strife for peace, the pursuit of peace, even at great peril, and certainly to the utter disdain of popularity or clamour. Whatever else history may or may not say about these terrible, tremendous years, we can be sure that Neville Chamberlain acted with perfect sincerity according to his lights and strove to the utmost of his capacity and authority, which were powerful, to save the world from the awful, devastating struggle in which we are now engaged. [/QUOTE] Let’s not forget that Daladier of France was present at Munich too. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conveniently-forgotten-historical-facts/501087/150 "2009-07-07T17:24:26Z")
> [@De\_La\_Rue](#): > > Well, when you have a son at age 63 and he has sons in his seventies, stuff like this can happen. Although this is moderately cool, it’s not like they remember going to visit Grandpa Tyler in the White House. \*That \*would be cool. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conveniently-forgotten-historical-facts/501087/151 "2009-07-07T17:27:28Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > There has rarely been a State whose hands were so unrelentingly drenched in the blood of innocents. This weak sauce is what we get from **SmashTheState**? For shame! How about taking on the super-organism properly? “There rarely has been _any_ nation-state whose hands were _not_ unrelentingly drenched in the blood of innocents.” That’s much more anarchically-correct _and_ it’s closer to the truth. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conveniently-forgotten-historical-facts/501087/152 "2009-07-07T18:50:46Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > In the 20th century it was certainly in the top 5. Three million plus in Vietnam alone, all the Cold War paranoia aiding and abetting in South America, Indonesia etc. So every single death in Vietnam is attributable to the United States, even when VC guys were pulling the trigger? We could charge Britain with every death in WWII and goose their body count. > [@tagos](#): > > Totally and completely outclassed by China, Germany and the USSR though. And Japan. So to be in the top 5, we have to be worse than every other nation on Earth–worse than the Khmer Rouge, worse than Sudan in Darfur, worse than Belgium in the Congo, worse than Great Britain and France in the many colonial rebellions (including Vietnam) they suppressed and attempted to suppress, worse than Turkey in Armenia. Whatever, dude. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conveniently-forgotten-historical-facts/501087/153 "2009-07-07T19:25:02Z")
> [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](#): > > So every single death in Vietnam is attributable to the United States, even when VC guys were pulling the trigger? We could charge Britain with every death in WWII and goose their body count. Your main point aside, Britain was not fighting an agressive war in WWII, while we certainly were in Vietnam. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conveniently-forgotten-historical-facts/501087/154 "2009-07-07T19:34:15Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Your main point aside, Britain was not fighting an agressive war in WWII, while we certainly were in Vietnam. WTH? We invaded the North and took over their country? Did we even try? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conveniently-forgotten-historical-facts/501087/155 "2009-07-07T19:41:34Z")
> [@BlinkingDuck](#): > > WTH? > > We invaded the North and took over their country? Did we even try? We invaded the _South_, on the pretext that we were defending them from the North. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conveniently-forgotten-historical-facts/501087/156 "2009-07-07T19:49:26Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Your main point aside, Britain was not fighting an agressive war in WWII, while we certainly were in Vietnam. Why not? Britain declared war on Germany before Germany declared war on Britain. What business was it of Britain’s who ran Poland? ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conveniently-forgotten-historical-facts/501087/157 "2009-07-07T19:49:33Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > We invaded the _South_, on the pretext that we were defending them from the North. Oh please. You can definitely make the argument that the current SV government shouldn’t have been supported (I certainly would). You can make the argument it was stupid (I would). You can be critical of actions taken once we were involved to prop up the government and their fortitude for the war. You can be critical of the damn stupid ‘Domino Theory’… …but we invaded the South? Please. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conveniently-forgotten-historical-facts/501087/158 "2009-07-07T20:03:11Z")
> [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](#): > > Why not? Britain declared war on Germany before Germany declared war on Britain. What business was it of Britain’s who ran Poland? > **[Anglo-Polish alliance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Polish_military_alliance)** > > The military alliance between the United Kingdom and Poland was formalised by the Anglo-Polish Agreement on 31 March 1939, with subsequent addenda of 1940 and 1944, for mutual assistance in case of a military invasion from Nazi Germany, as specified in a secret protocol. > The United Kingdom (First Chamberlain ministry) had been attempting to create a four-way alliance to contain Nazi Germany, with France (then governed by Édouard Daladier), Poland and the Soviet Union. Polish Foreign Minister Józ... ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conveniently-forgotten-historical-facts/501087/159 "2009-07-07T20:24:41Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > There must have been three months of my high school world-history class dedicated to various African countries, but I don’t think a single English or French king got more than a passing mention. Indeed, I frequently ask people just for the hell of it if they can name three English kings. They usually can’t. Henry I, Henry II and Henry III? and at least five more Henrys! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Pazu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pazu/32/15522_2.png) [@Pazu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pazu)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conveniently-forgotten-historical-facts/501087/160 "2009-07-07T20:41:24Z")
> [@Ranchoth](#): > > Heh, kinda reminds me of a Harry Turtledove story (I’ve read the synopsis/spoilers, online, 'haven’t found a copy of the full story in print, yet) involving Gandhi’s efforts for Indian independence…against Nazi colonial officials, taking possession of India after their total victory in Europe. > > Things do not go well. :smack: [“The Last Article”.](http://turtledove.wikia.com/wiki/The_Last_Article) I remember reading it in the 6th(?) annual Year’s Best Science Fiction collection, but it also appears in Turtledove’s collection _Kaleidoscope_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conveniently-forgotten-historical-facts/501087.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conveniently-forgotten-historical-facts/501087.md?page=9)