# Conversion or just deluded? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 31, 2005, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conversion-or-just-deluded/337828 "2005-12-31T05:53:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 4\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conversion-or-just-deluded/337828/101 "2006-01-05T07:11:44Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Not delusions of grandeur just stating a simple fact, that the world I perceive radiates out from a center point called ‘Erek Tinker’. That’s hardly delusions of grandeur, it’s called knowing one’s place in the universe. Claiming you shape reality isn’t “knowing one’s place in the universe”; it’s a power fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conversion-or-just-deluded/337828/102 "2006-01-05T21:33:25Z")
> [@Psilocybe](#): > > Its hard/impossible to argue with a definition of God like that. What about the bad trips? Suddenly you are no longer experiencing God, but instead locked in a deep spiral of recursive mindfuck which makes no sense. You’re communicating with aliens and you literally think you’ll be in this state _forever_, only lucky if you get your old life back. Its all easily more bizarre than anything which can be imagined. The concept of “God” never even crosses your mind, instead you’re at a loss of what to do and you don’t even know who you are. You’ve lost your place in the universe. You’re not even sure any of this is real. See I haven’t had those experiences. The most hellish trip I ever had was on DMT, and God was present there too. I don’t expect my experiences there to apply directly to this experience. I judge my experience in relation to the different constituent parts. So any crazy trip is judged in relation to the ‘reality’ that I am inhabiting at any given time. The only thing that is everpresent is God, even when my own identity is in the process of being stripped away. God is that anchor point that keeps me connected to reality. To me saying one can have an experience independent of God is like saying that one can have an operating system without a kernel. > [@](#): > > Is that God? Wheres the line between a “hallucination” and “insight”? Locked deep in a mushroom trip, one may be convinced of many things. Its not until afterwards that you realize you were just plain out wrong about many of them. What if I never regained the ability to tell that I was wrong? I can see that _its physical_ - I don’t decide what I consider right or wrong, its up to my brain. My whole view of reality is up to my brain. This type of reasoning is what has me entrenched in the “its our brains” belief. Drugs just make it obvious. The experiences on Mushrooms are completely valid at the time one is having them. Assuming them to be applicable to all situations that one ever enters into would be as silly as expecting the scientific method to apply to an interpretation of poetry. Erek ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conversion-or-just-deluded/337828/103 "2006-01-05T21:43:16Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > Claiming you shape reality isn’t “knowing one’s place in the universe”; it’s a power fantasy. So it is a power fantasy for me to believe that as I type upon this keyboard that words are actually forming on the computer screen in order to communicate to you? Is it completely delusional to think that you are making life choices based upon the interaction with the words that I am typing, such as well, choosing to read my words, and respond. If I build a house am I not ‘shaping’ reality? If I engage in politics, am I not shaping the culture of my community? By driving down the street do I not create wind currents that affect the weather patterns of the entire globe, in some small way? By purchasing something made in China am I not shaping the destiny of the Chinese by helping them to determine their choice of vocation? How about on a cosmic scale. If I support space colonization and add my strength of will to it, rather than oppose it, does this not make it more likely to occur? If that occurs and we spread across the galaxy, is that not shaping the galaxy? What do you think determines whether or not the cat in the box is alive or dead if there is an equal probability of each outcome? Does not mere observation of Quanta affect them? How about this one. Do you believe that the universe would exist if there was absolutely nothing in the universe capable of perceiving it? Erek ---
**Author:** ![Tevildo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Tevildo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tevildo)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conversion-or-just-deluded/337828/104 "2006-01-05T21:51:16Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > So it is a power fantasy for me to believe that as I type upon this keyboard that words are actually forming on the computer screen in order to communicate to you? Yes, with emphasis on “communicate”. > [@](#): > > Is it completely delusional to think that you are making life choices based upon the interaction with the words that I am typing, such as well, choosing to read my words, and respond. Yes. > [@](#): > > If I build a house am I not ‘shaping’ reality? No, just rearranging it. > [@](#): > > If I engage in politics, am I not shaping the culture of my community? Not if they have any sense. > [@](#): > > By driving down the street do I not create wind currents that affect the weather patterns of the entire globe, in some small way? No. > [@](#): > > By purchasing something made in China am I not shaping the destiny of the Chinese by helping them to determine their choice of vocation? No. > [@](#): > > If I support space colonization and add my strength of will to it, rather than oppose it, does this not make it more likely to occur? No. > [@](#): > > Do you believe that the universe would exist if there was absolutely nothing in the universe capable of perceiving it? Yes. That was easy. James Bennett “Tevildo” Allen BA IEEE UKCTBFC. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conversion-or-just-deluded/337828.md?page=5)