Conversion Therapy and Minors

Marley23 · October 2, 2012, 2:15pm

Before the strawmanning gets out of control, could someone post a cite for the suicides and other harm from this therapy?

Der_Trihs · October 2, 2012, 2:25pm

To give her the proper credit I’ll quote Lamia’s cite on the subject:

Sexuality: Choice or not, and does it matter?

I’ve been looking up some studies on the subject (bit of a busman’s holiday for me since I’m a librarian ) and there is some evidence that some people can to some extent change their sexual preferences. The following isn’t a direct response to you, Mangetout, I’m just taking this as an opportunity to share with the group.

There was a controversial 2003 study by Robert L. Spitzer* that involved interviewing people who self-identified as successful conversion cases. Spitzer included only those who reported having sustained some change in their orientation for at least five years. Many of the participants did report dramatically reduced levels of same-sex attraction since undergoing some form of therapy to change their sexuality, and all but one of the participants had completely given up homosexual sex. When asked if they were ever “bothered by unwanted homosexual feelings”, 26% of the men and 49% of the women chose “Not at all”.

Of course, this means that 74% of the men and 51% of the women were at least sometimes still “bothered by unwanted homosexual feelings”. 45% of the men and 18% of the women also reported that at least 20% of the time they still fantasized about members of the same sex while masturbating. Taking this study at face value (it has been criticized for methodological problems) there do certainly seem to be people who have made voluntary changes in their sexual preferences, but few who managed to completely abolish all homosexual desire. And remember, this wasn’t a study of people who’d simply undergone “ex-gay” therapy, but only of those who self-identified as having made a sustained and significant change in their orientation.

Ariel Shidlo and Michael Schroeder’s 2002 study “Changing Sexual Orientation: A Consumers’ Report”** seems to be the best study on how successful “ex-gay” therapies actually are. This study involved interviewing 202 people who had undergone sexual orientation conversion intervention. 13% (26 people) of these people considered themselves to be success stories, but nearly half of these still experienced repeated “slips” into homosexual behavior. Of the remaining 14 people, 6 reported having successfully stopped engaging in homosexual behavior but still experienced some same-sex desire and did not self-identify as heterosexual. Only 8 people (4%) self-identified as heterosexual and reported exclusively engaging in heterosexual behavior with little or no same-sex desire.

Interestingly, 7 of these 8 people worked as “ex-gay” counselors, 3 on a volunteer basis and 4 for pay. In fairness, people who were truly successful in changing their sexual orientations would likely have an interest in helping others who wanted to do the same. But I can’t help but think that people who are themselves “ex-gay” counselors would have good reason to exaggerate how successful their own conversion has been.

The majority (77%) of the participants in Shidlo and Schroeder’s study indicated not only that the therapy hadn’t changed their sexual orientation, but that it had done them significant long-term damage. (Another 10% reported experiencing neither change in orientation nor any long-term psychological harm.) 11 participants reported attempting suicide after undergoing “ex-gay” therapy. Only 3 of these had previously attempted suicide. So it looks to me like “ex-gay” therapy is at least as likely to make people want to kill themselves as it is to result in a successful conversion to heterosexuality.

Based on this I continue to believe that while it’s possible that some very small minority of people may be able to genuinely change their sexual orientation through voluntary effort, the vast majority cannot and for the sake of their own mental health shouldn’t even try.

*There are some people who are pushed into “ex-gay” programs, sometimes teenagers forced into it by their own families, but there are also people who genuinely wish to change their sexual orientation because they believe that it is disordered, that it is sinful, or they are otherwise unhappy about not being heterosexual. What’s truly tragic is that the majority of these people will wind up even more unhappy for having tried to change their orientation.
*“Can Some Gay Men and Lesbians Change Their Sexual Orientation? 200 Participants Reporting a Change from Homosexual to Heterosexual Orientation”, Archives of Sexual Behavior, Vol. 32, No. 5, October 2003, pp. 403–417.

**Professional Psychology: Research and Practice, 2002, Vol. 33, No. 3, 249–259

Little_Nemo · October 2, 2012, 5:08pm

An ironic thought occurs to me. I’m pretty sure there’s a high overlap between parents who think homosexuality is morally wrong and parents who think premarital sex is morally wrong.

For them, conversion therapy must walk a tight rope. Undersell heterosexuality and your kids might stay gay. Oversell heterosexuality and your kids might decide to try it out. The goal is to hit the middle and turn your children into theoretical heterosexuals.

Boyo_Jim · October 2, 2012, 5:15pm

I would do a fake gay thing if I thought the outcome was to be “cured” by having sex with girls.

OMG, a miracle has occurred!

tdn · October 2, 2012, 5:32pm

The law does not specifically say that, but “reverse conversion” is also illegal. Read the text of the law in post 26.

tdn · October 2, 2012, 5:33pm

Fella, you’re so adorable when you say that.

chorpler · October 2, 2012, 6:07pm

I’m pretty sure that was on an episode of Malcolm in the Middle.

John_Mace · October 2, 2012, 7:30pm

“Abuse” means something very specific when we’re talking about the law, which we are in this thread. Pretty much every kid faces “trauma” at some point during their lives because they clash with their parents, so raising the specter that a teen might face “trauma” isn’t very convincing.

I think parents trying to convert their kids is ludicrous and not good parenting. But it doesn’t rise to the level of “abuse” such that we need a law prohibiting parents from having that conversation with their kids or seeking councilor to do so. This is more along the lines of parents trying to prevent their heterosexual teenagers from dating or having sex. Pushing them into sports when they don’t want to play sports, etc.

Yeah, I don’t think gays are human. You found me out!

Simplicio · October 2, 2012, 7:35pm

And you’re (sometimes) right!!

Czarcasm · October 2, 2012, 7:44pm

Can someone post a link to what exactly goes on in “conversion therapy” and/or “conversion therapy” camp?(non-pdf, if possible.)

Boyo_Jim · October 2, 2012, 7:49pm

When I open my gay conversion sauna, a video of Buddy and Pedro will be my primary (and possibly only) educational tool.

In a fundamentalist’s eye, is it worse for a man to want to fuck a penguin, or another man? Does it matter what gender the penguin is?

Little_Nemo · October 2, 2012, 8:32pm

So trying to convince two hot girls to make out with each other is illegal?

Damn, I really have to stop basing my legal knowledge on Girls Gone Wild videos.

Boyo_Jim · October 2, 2012, 8:38pm

Not to worry. It’s illegal for a psychiatrist, but not for a film maker. Even better, the psychiatrist can’t come around to tell your hot chick friends NOT to make out with each other.

outlierrn · October 2, 2012, 8:50pm

Is no one else going to give the thumbs up for But I’m a Cheerleader?.
Parents have a right and need to do many things that kids don’t like.
Society has a right and need to prevent parents from doing whatever they like.

Neither of these statements is controversial, the question, as always, is where to draw the line, and the burden, IMHO, is on the those proposing the risk. It’s on the state to prove vaccines are more good than harm, it’s on the parents to prove that conversion therapy is more good than harm. They haven’t done so.

My only concern would be if the law was badly written and was too specific/not specific enough.

Der_Trihs · October 2, 2012, 9:51pm

Garbage, this isn’t even close to that. This is about systematically traumatizing the kid; I’d put it roughly on the same level as beating them or raping them. I think it should be made illegal, and I’d consider it grounds for their kids being taken away and the parent put in prison for life where they can’t abuse other children.

Bryan_Ekers · October 2, 2012, 10:07pm

Actually, the element in that movie I found most interesting wasn’t the gay therapy, or the motives of the people running the gay therapy, or the guys who’d rejected the gay therapy (because frankly, all the above just kept hammering on gay stereotypes), but a brief moment near the end when one of the girls (Jan, played by Katrina Phillips) leaves because she actually is straight and always was - she was just sent to the camp for not being stereotypically female in that she wore her hair in a crew cut and liked sports and didn’t care about “girly” stuff and whatnot which led her parents to assume she was a lesbian. Her crime was nonconformity, not homosexuality.

Little_Nemo · October 3, 2012, 12:07am

I thought it was funny that Megan honestly didn’t realize she was gay until her parents sent her to the conversion camp and she met the girl she fell in love with.

John_Mace · October 3, 2012, 2:57am

I think 2 years in a Re-education camp would be better. We could call it radical left-wing conversion therapy.