# Converting to Natural Gas **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 27, 2009, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/converting-to-natural-gas/522701 "2009-12-27T13:03:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Moonshiner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@Moonshiner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonshiner)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2009, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/converting-to-natural-gas/522701/21 "2009-12-28T19:25:38Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m sorry, I don’t follow you here. Why does a gas furnace need electricity to run?? You need electricity to run the blower that moves the warm air into the living area. Also, most gas valves on modern furnaces have interlocks on them that require voltage before opening. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2009, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/converting-to-natural-gas/522701/22 "2009-12-28T19:52:52Z")
> [@Miss\_Violaceous](#): > > We are new homeowners in SE virginia. The house was built in 1986, and all of the appliances are reaching the end of their usable life. In addition, there seem to be more than the usual number of tax credits and deals being offered. > > Right now we have: > > - Electric heat pump heat that did just fine in the fall, but during the coldest days of the winter (which in this area is when it is consistently below freezing but not much below) it hasn’t been keeping up. However, a small space heater has taken the edge off and I can live with it a while longer now. > - Electric water heater that may or may not already be deceased. > - Electric air conditioner that absolutely needs replacing anyway before next summer. I’m pretty sure it is connected to the heat pump unit in some way so we could replace both at the same time. > - A glasstop electric stove that I, a cooking geek, hate with a fiery passion that well exceeds the fireability of the stove itself. Natural gas to cook with is capital-A-Awesome. > > The house currently has no natural gas and never has as far as we know. In addition, the house is set back quite a ways from the road, so we’d have higher than normal costs to run a line from the main. Our local natural gas company offers line installation discounts when you upgrade multiple appliances at once, presumably because you use more gas that way in the long run. I can get specific numbers on that from my husband if the math hangs in the balance. The house is between 2,500 and 3,000 square feet but I don’t know if that includes the garage or not (it’s an elongated ranch layout). For now it is just the two of us but kids are on the way sometime in the next decade or so. > > My husband is from an area where natural gas is relatively cheap and electricity is relatively expensive. He’s convinced that converting now will save us soooo much money but hasn’t been able to show me numbers to that effect (or of any kind). > > I’m hesitant to put such a big investment into fossil fuels. My understanding is that the local source for electricity is also deriived from fossil fuels, but my thinking is that electrical appliances will keep running no matter what the source changes to, but natural gas will just keep dminishing in supply and going up in price. We’ll have a big investment to cover, with the possibility that the differential in price will continue to diminish. > > My husband thinks none of this will make a difference for the life of the appliances, and we can go back to electric in 20 years if we need to. > > So, \*\*worth it \*\*or not **worth it**? **Miss Violaceous** The vast majority of people in your situation opt for natural gas. The vast majority. I would venture that for the foreseeable future NG will be cheaper than electric to produce Btus. I would agree with **constanze** that the envelope----windows, doors and walls------are the biggest influence on your utility bill, so if you’re able to improve them you’ll help your case. If that’s not in the cards right now, then you want the most efficient heating/ cooling system you can afford. If you take the additional step and evaluate them against “first cost”----the cost of installation----I think you’ll find immediately that a boiler system and solar will not provide the payback. IMO, **beowulff** hit the nail on the head. The most cost effective way to heat/ cool the house (short of Geothermal) is a combination heat pump/ gas furnace. In both appliances you can get standard efficiencies (13 SEER, 80% respectively) up to high efficiency. (16+ SEER 95+% respectively) Through 2010 there are $1500 direct tax credits for high efficiency; essentially the government is paying for $1500 of the bill. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2009, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/converting-to-natural-gas/522701/23 "2009-12-28T20:51:37Z")
> [@Moonshiner](#): > > You need electricity to run the blower that moves the warm air into the living area. Also, most gas valves on modern furnaces have interlocks on them that require voltage before opening. Oh, I forgot! You Americans have that weird system with open air blowing around! I’m used to normal central heating, where pipes lead hot water to radiators, never open vents that blow air around. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2009, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/converting-to-natural-gas/522701/24 "2009-12-28T20:57:26Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > I don’t think I agree with much of your post, and the parts of I do agree with I think lack some context. > > NG delivery in this country is very safe. There is always a danger with any/all heating/ cooking systems. All of them. this includes gas, propane, electric, wood, corn or other forms of heat. > > So comments like, _“If you want gas only for cooking despite the explosion danger,…”_ are a little misleading. I’d be hard pressed to believe that gas is anything more than infinitesimally more dangerous than electric. Gas lines in Europe have improved over the last decades, too. That still means that because of the chemical nature of gas, the danger of explosion if there is a leak is non-zero. With other cooking systems, the most common besides gas is electric. You can’t have an explosion from electric system. You can’t burn the house down if your power cables were laid in the last decades and you have proper breakers. With wood stoves, you have a danger of the chimney soot catching fire if you neglect the yearly inspection and cleaing by the chimney inspector (man in black with ladder). All cooking systems can burn down your house if you leave a pot unattended or similar, but only gas has the chance of blowing you up without any mistakes on your part. Now, today that probability might be 0.0000001 or 0.00000000000001, I don’t have the current numbers. That doesn’t change the fact that to some people, a non-zero risk is too high compared to the benefits. The personal evaluation of risk vs benefits is subjective, only the risk assesment itself is objective. Therefore, people will differ and you can’t argue logically about it. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2009, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/converting-to-natural-gas/522701/25 "2009-12-28T21:03:20Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > **Miss Violaceous** > The vast majority of people in your situation opt for natural gas. The vast majority. That in itself doesn’t say anything on whether that’s the best or cheapest option. It could be that most people choose the most well-known, or short-term cheapest option, not the most efficient or long-term cheapest option. The vast majority of people often make bad choices, esp. if information is as one-sided as it appears to be. > [@](#): > > I would venture that for the foreseeable future NG will be cheaper than electric to produce Btus. How long is the foreseeable future - 5 years or 30 years? And is the only option what’s cheaper than electricity, or what’s better all around? Solar thermic is not only better for the environment, it completely eliminates the dependence on any provider, so it’s far cheaper long-term. > [@](#): > > Through 2010 there are $1500 direct tax credits for high efficiency; essentially the government is paying for $1500 of the bill. That’s one of the things I was talking about: new credits, funds, loans from the US govt. for energy use. Like I said, stimulus sometimes also applies if you employ local expert craftsmen for the insatllation of whatever system, or the improved insulation. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2009, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/converting-to-natural-gas/522701/26 "2009-12-28T21:27:26Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > Gas lines in Europe have improved over the last decades, too. That still means that because of the chemical nature of gas, the danger of explosion if there is a leak is non-zero. > > With other cooking systems, the most common besides gas is electric. You can’t have an explosion from electric system. You can’t burn the house down if your power cables were laid in the last decades and you have proper breakers. > With wood stoves, you have a danger of the chimney soot catching fire if you neglect the yearly inspection and cleaing by the chimney inspector (man in black with ladder). > > All cooking systems can burn down your house if you leave a pot unattended or similar, but only gas has the chance of blowing you up without any mistakes on your part. > > Now, today that probability might be 0.0000001 or 0.00000000000001, I don’t have the current numbers. That doesn’t change the fact that to some people, a non-zero risk is too high compared to the benefits. The personal evaluation of risk vs benefits is subjective, only the risk assesment itself is objective. Therefore, people will differ and you can’t argue logically about it. This is fear mongering. And minutia at that. Theres a non-zero chance that a meteor will kill me before I finish this post, too. Gas appliances rarely “blow up.” Electrical appliances don’t blow up, but there is no shortage of electrical fires either. No shortage at all. The comment, _“You can’t burn the house down if your power cables were laid in the last decades and you have proper breakers…”_ is not accurate. It sure helps to have modern constrution methods and materials, but newer homes do catch fire. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2009, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/converting-to-natural-gas/522701/27 "2009-12-28T21:40:56Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > That in itself doesn’t say anything on whether that’s the best or cheapest option. It could be that most people choose the most well-known, or short-term cheapest option, not the most efficient or long-term cheapest option. The vast majority of people often make bad choices, esp. if information is as one-sided as it appears to be. I do this for a living. I have _zero_ bias. I listen to my customers and ask lots of questions. In the end many buy conventional systems, others more advanced. > [@](#): > > How long is the foreseeable future - 5 years or 30 years? It’s speculation. Exxon Mobil is buying a huge NG supplier and theres speculation that Exxon will try to lobby for NG power plants. (most in the US are coal fired) The speculation is that NG prices may rise significantly. It’s anybody’s guess. > [@](#): > > And is the only option what’s cheaper than electricity, or what’s better all around? Solar thermic is not only better for the environment, it completely eliminates the dependence on any provider, so it’s far cheaper long-term. I have no doubt that solar will be a factor—in the future. The technology is just not there now, and it is _not_ cheaper----even long term. If someone is buying on economics alone, solar is a non-starter. If social awareness, or concern for the environment is a factor, than solar should be considered. But from a dollars and cents perspective, it’s not cost effective. > [@](#): > > That’s one of the things I was talking about: new credits, funds, loans from the US govt. for energy use. Like I said, stimulus sometimes also applies if you employ local expert craftsmen for the insatllation of whatever system, or the improved insulation. In the short term subsidies are needed for these technologies. The problem is that fossil fuels are still plentiful enough that it is cheaper to use gas and electricity. The cost of energy needs to rise (and over time, it will) and the cost of the technology needs to fall. (and improve!) And it will. I find that the people who buy “green” technologies have these 3 components: 1. A long term perspective 2. A social awareness and concern 3. The means to write a large chech; significantly larger than a conventional system. ---
**Author:** ![Moonshiner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@Moonshiner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonshiner)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/converting-to-natural-gas/522701/28 "2009-12-29T00:28:39Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > Oh, I forgot! You Americans have that weird system with open air blowing around! > > I’m used to normal central heating, where pipes lead hot water to radiators, never open vents that blow air around. A: I’d forgotten that [Germans are irrationally afraid of drafts](http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,407764,00.html), sorry. 😛 B: It’s hard to air condition a house with pipes full of water and a boiler. Central HVAC is ‘normal’ in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/converting-to-natural-gas/522701/29 "2009-12-29T05:12:17Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > I don’t think I agree with much of your post, and the parts of I do agree with I think lack some context. > > NG delivery in this country is very safe. There is always a danger with any/all heating/ cooking systems. All of them. this includes gas, propane, electric, wood, corn or other forms of heat. > > So comments like, _“If you want gas only for cooking despite the explosion danger,…”_ are a little misleading. I’d be hard pressed to believe that gas is anything more than infinitesimally more dangerous than electric. I would agree with this. I have no statistics but it has been over 30 years since I read in the paper about a house burning because of a gas leak. but I have heard of house fires caused by shortsor sparks from a wood fire. Every thing missed handled has a danger. Even di hydrogren monoxide:D ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/converting-to-natural-gas/522701/30 "2009-12-29T05:26:44Z")
[quote=“constanze, post:17, topic:522701”] Theoretically, any gas line or butane tank can leak gas, and any amount of gas in the air, esp. in a cloud, can be ignited by any spark. QUOTE] This is incorrect. It is not any amount. Each fuel has a combustion ratio range. If the fuel level is below the lower limit it will not ignite, and if if the fuel level is above the ratio again it will not ignite. As far as it being a high danger, No. In fact last year there was a main line gas leak in frount of our house. My wife had noticed the smell about two weeks before. I could not smell it. My neighbor’s wife noticed it aand called the utillity. they came out the next day with snifers, and got a positive results. The next day they came out and dug up the sidewalk repaired the line. If it was as dangerous as you are stating, the neighborhood would have been evacuated until the line could be fixed. To the question as why a gas furnace would need electricty, most gas furnaces are forced air furnaces and need electricity to fun the fan. Also the newer furnaces use an electronic control board. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/converting-to-natural-gas/522701/31 "2009-12-29T05:42:32Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > I’m used to normal central heating, where pipes lead hot water to radiators, never open vents that blow air around. This is something I have wondered about. To keep a hot water or steam system working without high maintenance the water chemistry has to be maintained. At one time in California the radiant heat systems with water pipes in the floor were considered great. They were installed in more exopensive homes. But the home owners did not know about water chemistry. I doubt if any of those systems still run. Do home owners in areas where boilers are common understand water cemistry? ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/converting-to-natural-gas/522701/32 "2009-12-29T09:30:15Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > Even if your roof is not very steep, the panels themselves are often at an angle of 40 to 45 degrees for maximum efficiency. An expert who already has experience with solar panels will use local weather data and simulation software to determine the exact angle. Added to that, the surface of the panels itself is very very slick because - unlike roof tiles made from clay - it’s made from smooth plastic, so snow slides off. The reason this question is so weird for me is that anytime I take a train or above-ground subway ride from Munich in any direction, I will pass several houses with solar panels - thermic and PV - on their roof, so I have seen them in any weather. The only time snow is on them is if it’s just snowed this night, and the clouds are still covering the sky. > [@](#): > > What, are you talking about photoelectric panels or solar thermic ones now? If you want to heat your house and stay independent, solar thermic panels are sufficient, and, because easier built - basically, they are black tubes filled with the special fluid, plus the heat transfer in the basement; the heat tank in the basement, I would advise anyway), cheaper and sturdier. > If you want to put in a two-way meter and pump electricity back, you need photovoltaic panels, which are a bit more expensive. I forgot to add: at one information booth last year I saw a newly developed panel that combines thermic and PV: the PV is on top, the thermic tubes are on the back helping cool it. It’s primarily for roofs where space is too limited to install both panel types seperatly. I don’t know if the efficiency is better or lower than seperate panels. PV panels don’t like to be too hot, their optimum temp. is 20-30 C, and above 40 C they work less efficiently, so combining them with a cooling pipe on the back is a good idea. Also, depending on the type, PV panels can pick up and convert not only visible light, but also UV, which means that on a cloudy day, you have up to 70% (because of infraction through the water droplets) of UV light and therefore, make electricity even then. And Virgina is more south than Bavaria, so if our numbers are quite sufficient (up to 8 hrs. of sunshine) that 10% of people have solar on their roofs, I don’t understand what numbers don’t work for you. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/converting-to-natural-gas/522701/33 "2009-12-29T09:39:47Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > Gas appliances rarely “blow up.” Electrical appliances don’t blow up, but there is no shortage of electrical fires either. No shortage at all. What do you mean with “electrical fires” - the type where people make mistakes like leaving an iron or oven on and forgetting it, or the type where a cable burns through during normal use, or a surge causes a toaster to melt, instead of the breakers going off? Because the former is the mistakes of the owners I already was talking about; the latter means that the standards for wiring in houses and for appliances in your country don’t seem to be up to standard. Do you have a regulatory body or standards for this? Do you have an independent or govt. lab that tests appliances and gives a seal of approval if they meet standards? I assumed that if your gas lines are safe because of regulation, then your electrical things would similarly be watched, but maybe that was a mistaken assumption. > [@](#): > > The comment, _“You can’t burn the house down if your power cables were laid in the last decades and you have proper breakers…”_ is not accurate. It sure helps to have modern construction methods and materials, but newer homes do catch fire. Yes, that sentence was too short. I meant that you can’t burn a modern house down if you aren’t negligent. That is, both your wiring and appliances aren’t older than 30 years, then a surge in the line won’t cause your toaster to burn, or a broken cable will trip the breaker. Now again, I was assuming similar standards to Germany, where this is true. We do have fires, of course, but those are always either neglience - people left the iron etc. on - or older appliances. The latest problem are cheaply made appliances from China that don’t have the seal of safety, like Christmas light strings for 5 Euros, where naturally the wiring is so cheap that they can catch fire. (So the warnings and recommendations this Christmas was not only against real candles on trees as usual, but also against cheap light strings without safety seals.) ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/converting-to-natural-gas/522701/34 "2009-12-29T09:55:57Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > I do this for a living. I have _zero_ bias. I listen to my customers and ask lots of questions. In the end many buy conventional systems, others more advanced. You do what for a living - convert people’s home to natural gas, or advise people on different technologies? Because if you help with gas, you do have a bias. On the other hand, I seldom hear about people being experts in different kinds of system. Usually, you ask one expert about wood stove systems, another expert about solar, a third expert about gas. Are you saying you are an expert in three and more systems? > [@](#): > > I have no doubt that solar will be a factor—in the future. The technology is just not there now, and it is _not_ cheaper----even long term. What technology is not here? Solar has been used commercially and on homes for 20 years now in Germany, with huge increases and developments in the technology during that time. As for cheaper - what’s cheaper than a one-time investment without any future payments to suppliers? The sun will always shine for free, no matter what your gas provider is charging you. > [@](#): > > If someone is buying on economics alone, solar is a non-starter. If social awareness, or concern for the environment is a factor, than solar should be considered. But from a dollars and cents perspective, it’s not cost effective. But the OP didn’t ask for the cheapest, but for the best option. Again, does economics mean to you only 3 or 5 years forecast? Do you not calculate 10 or 20 years in the future? It certainly makes a lot of economic sense. More and more people in Germany who don’t give a shit about environment are converting to solar because gas and oil prices are rising and it’s foreseeable they will continue to rise with shortening resources, and with the price hikes the companies are pulling, people want to be independent, and save money. > [@](#): > > In the short term subsidies are needed for these technologies. Yes, and? That doesn’t make them bad as alternative. It simply means that they have a bigger initial investment than conventional technology, and that people are irrationally prejudiced against them, so if a special loan or similar convinces people of the long-term advantages, that doesn’t invalidate the technology. > [@](#): > > The problem is that fossil fuels are still plentiful enough that it is cheaper to use gas and electricity. The cost of energy needs to rise (and over time, it will) and the cost of the technology needs to fall. (and improve!) And it will. No, fossil fuels are currently still wasted away by Americans because they are far too cheap in your country. With other countries like China joining in that behaviour, there’s already an unexpected hike in oil prices as they start producing more and more from plastic and driving more cars than before. There’s no reliable prognosis how long supplies will last with current US behaviour and other countries joining, but you can’t rely on prices staying low. As for solar technology, it **has** improved and prices \*\* have\*\* fallen. Maybe it would actually be cheaper to buy solar here in Germany and ship it over if you don’t have access to good technology in your country, I don’t know. > [@](#): > > I find that the people who buy “green” technologies have these 3 components: > > 1. A long term perspective > > 2. A social awareness and concern > > 3. The means to write a large chech; significantly larger than a conventional system. If by long-term perspective you mean the willigness to look at the next 10-20 years, instead of buying the cheapest system for the next 3-5 years, than that’s what economics means to me. It’s far more cheap to do things proper once with a reliable system even if it means spending 10 or 20 K (or whatever I don’t have the numbers for your area) right now, instead of spending 5 K now on a system that will last for 5 years, and then spend 5 K again, etc., and because you don’t isolate, having huge bills for the fuel itself during that time, too. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/converting-to-natural-gas/522701/35 "2009-12-29T10:00:49Z")
> [@Moonshiner](#): > > A: I’d forgotten that [Germans are irrationally afraid of drafts](http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,407764,00.html), sorry. 😛 Haha. Very funny. The reason we don’t have warm air blowing around is that it’s a very inefficient system of delivering heat. But then, Americans don’t care about energy conservation, with their non-insulated houses, if we are playing at stereotypes. > [@](#): > > B: It’s hard to air condition a house with pipes full of water and a boiler. Central HVAC is ‘normal’ in the US. Yes, because your homes apparently don’t have to meet any standards for isolation. By contrast, the laws passed several years demand that every residence (only office building and similar excepted) meets the 3liter standard. That is, per square meter per year you need 3 liters of heating oil or less or it’s energy equivalent of other sources to both heat it in winter and cool it in summer. With a 3 liter house, the amount of panels needed for heating and PV panels to run a ventilator in summer is small compared to a non-isolated house. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/converting-to-natural-gas/522701/36 "2009-12-29T10:37:08Z")
> [@Snnipe\_70E](#): > > This is something I have wondered about. To keep a hot water or steam system working without high maintenance the water chemistry has to be maintained. At one time in California the radiant heat systems with water pipes in the floor were considered great. They were installed in more expensive homes. But the home owners did not know about water chemistry. I doubt if any of those systems still run. Do home owners in areas where boilers are common understand water chemistry? I don’t know what you mean about water chemistry. Do you mean that in certain areas, water has a high natural chalk content, so you have to take care that the pipes don’t become clogged? That is much more a problem for normal hot and cold running water and toilet systems, because that water stands in the pipes for a long time and thus the chalk can settle. The water in the central heating system is constantly circulating in the radiators and back to the tank, so I don’t think it’s too much of a problem. Boilers for hot water for showers need to be de-calcified regularly, I think every 10 years, otherwise the crust lower efficiency, and you need more fuel to heat the water. Do you mean that if water is kept at a certain temp., there is a danger of legionella? That is not a problem for central heating itself, which is a closed system, but for the hot water boilers that feed the showers. Do American homes not have a boiler for a shower? Do you only use direct heat for shower? That would be too cold for me. With legionellas, the janitor puts in certain chemicals regularly, or you raise the temp higher. Or what else do you mean? I’m not a home-owner myself, I live in apt. house, but when I went to several house building companies and other information places, there was always mention of a heat storage tank, that would also provide hot water for showers, otherwise you would need a hot water boiler anyway. There was no mention of special care-taking, so I assume that the builders assumed that the prospective home-owners would know that any system requires a certain amount of maintenance. Surely you have to clean and calibrate and inspect a hot air system regularly, too? ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/converting-to-natural-gas/522701/37 "2009-12-29T12:02:38Z")
> [@Snnipe\_70E](#): > > This is something I have wondered about. To keep a hot water or steam system working without high maintenance the water chemistry has to be maintained. […] Do home owners in areas where boilers are common understand water cemistry? The simple answer is no. Home owners don’t generally take any interest in the chemical composition of the water in their central heating system. This is just town water at atmospheric pressure and relatively low temperatures. Deposition isn’t really a problem because the most vulnerable part of the system (the heat exchanger in the boiler) is also the hottest part. In addition, the lifetime of a modern gas boiler is quite short (maybe 5 to 10 years). A bigger (but still relatively minor) problem is corrosion. If you drain off the water you will find it is black and looks filthy. This is because of particles of iron oxide (magnetite) in suspension. As the inside wall of the radiator gets corroded away, it will eventually form a pinhole leak, spraying a tiny arc of water into the room. I would say the time to failure is well over 20 years under most conditions, so this is far from a frequent problem. Air in the radiators will tends to promote this corrosion mechanism (as well as making the radiators ineffective) so any air should be bled out. Also, draining the system and introducing fresh water (together with dissolved air and chemicals) will increase the rate of corrosion. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/converting-to-natural-gas/522701/38 "2009-12-29T12:52:57Z")
> [@hibernicus](#): > > A bigger (but still relatively minor) problem is corrosion. If you drain off the water you will find it is black and looks filthy. This is because of particles of iron oxide (magnetite) in suspension. As the inside wall of the radiator gets corroded away, it will eventually form a pinhole leak, spraying a tiny arc of water into the room. I would say the time to failure is well over 20 years under most conditions, so this is far from a frequent problem. Even that seems unusual - I have lived all my life in apt.s with central heating radiators, and most people here do, too, yet I’ve never heard of a radiator springing a leak per this description. The most common water failure is when normal water pipes freeze and crack in the winter - that happens often enough to be a bother, esp. in the older houses, where the owners are too cheap to renovate the whole system at once, instead repairing each single instance of a burst pipe. > [@](#): > > Air in the radiators will tends to promote this corrosion mechanism (as well as making the radiators ineffective) so any air should be bled out. Also, draining the system and introducing fresh water (together with dissolved air and chemicals) will increase the rate of corrosion. They do sell gadgets to de-air radiators, but the ones I have seen have no opening that allows this, so the de-airing is apparently done down at the boiler itself, for I don’t hear the tell-tale gurgling sound that air bubbles produce. I think I have heard once or twice that the system was drained or de-aired, but that’s once every 10 years or so. Maybe when they need to change the boiler itself anyway, they do the rest, too. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/converting-to-natural-gas/522701/39 "2009-12-29T13:02:20Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > What do you mean with “electrical fires” - the type where people make mistakes like leaving an iron or oven on and forgetting it, or the type where a cable burns through during normal use, or a surge causes a toaster to melt, instead of the breakers going off? > > Because the former is the mistakes of the owners I already was talking about; the latter means that the standards for wiring in houses and for appliances in your country don’t seem to be up to standard. Do you have a regulatory body or standards for this? Do you have an independent or govt. lab that tests appliances and gives a seal of approval if they meet standards? I assumed that if your gas lines are safe because of regulation, then your electrical things would similarly be watched, but maybe that was a mistaken assumption. > > Yes, that sentence was too short. I meant that you can’t burn a modern house down if you aren’t negligent. That is, both your wiring and appliances aren’t older than 30 years, then a surge in the line won’t cause your toaster to burn, or a broken cable will trip the breaker. > > Now again, I was assuming similar standards to Germany, where this is true. We do have fires, of course, but those are always either neglience - people left the iron etc. on - or older appliances. The latest problem are cheaply made appliances from China that don’t have the seal of safety, like Christmas light strings for 5 Euros, where naturally the wiring is so cheap that they can catch fire. (So the warnings and recommendations this Christmas was not only against real candles on trees as usual, but also against cheap light strings without safety seals.) **constanze** I mean no disrespect, but I don’t think you have much expertise in these areas at at all. The OP is from the USA, and asked a fairly straight forward question. She didn’t give us a tremendous amount of information, but certainly enough to give her not just a general direction but some common answers. Your original answer had several answers, some of which I didn’t even touch on. My fear is that the OP will see this as a lot more complicated than it actually is. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/converting-to-natural-gas/522701/40 "2009-12-29T13:04:43Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > I don’t know what you mean about water chemistry. Do you mean that in certain areas, water has a high natural chalk content, so you have to take care that the pipes don’t become clogged? > > That is much more a problem for normal hot and cold running water and toilet systems, because that water stands in the pipes for a long time and thus the chalk can settle. The water in the central heating system is constantly circulating in the radiators and back to the tank, so I don’t think it’s too much of a problem. Boilers for hot water for showers need to be de-calcified regularly, I think every 10 years, otherwise the crust lower efficiency, and you need more fuel to heat the water. > > Do you mean that if water is kept at a certain temp., there is a danger of legionella? > > That is not a problem for central heating itself, which is a closed system, but for the hot water boilers that feed the showers. Do American homes not have a boiler for a shower? Do you only use direct heat for shower? That would be too cold for me. With legionellas, the janitor puts in certain chemicals regularly, or you raise the temp higher. > > Or what else do you mean? I’m not a home-owner myself, I live in apt. house, but when I went to several house building companies and other information places, there was always mention of a heat storage tank, that would also provide hot water for showers, otherwise you would need a hot water boiler anyway. There was no mention of special care-taking, so I assume that the builders assumed that the prospective home-owners would know that any system requires a certain amount of maintenance. Surely you have to clean and calibrate and inspect a hot air system regularly, too? Once again, you are speaking about things you don’t know about. Water treatment for boilers----including closed systems (and all boilers are, btw) is necessary. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/converting-to-natural-gas/522701.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/converting-to-natural-gas/522701.md?page=3)