# Convicted Military Officers -- Rank? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 6, 2012, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convicted-military-officers-rank/640047 "2012-11-06T04:15:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convicted-military-officers-rank/640047/1 "2012-11-06T04:15:20Z")
I know that enlisted personnel, when convicted of a serious enough crime, often lose their rank and are busted down to E-1 for the duration of their sentence. I also know that officers cannot be “busted” down in rank as a result of a court-martial. My question then is, what happens to commissioned officers when they are convicted of serious crimes. Take Nidal Hasan (the accused Ft. Hood shooter), for example. His rank is Major (O-4). If he is convicted, does he still maintain his rank while serving his sentence (although, of course with the understanding that he doesn’t really have any authority)? If not, what rank would he hold? Thanks, Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convicted-military-officers-rank/640047/2 "2012-11-06T04:44:18Z")
> [@](#): > > Everyone confined in my facility is reduced in rank, generally to E-1, the lowest enlisted rank. However, you do not have rank when you are in confinement. We do have some officers who think they can still wear their rank even though they are confined. (Sort of like Col Hogan in Hogan’s Heroes) It doesn’t happen. The former Officers are housed the same as the former Enlisted. They are all referred to as “Inmate SoandSo” [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14451873&postcount=11](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14451873&postcount=11) > [@](#): > > Yes, officers lose their commission when they are sentenced. Even the former officers are reduced to E-1. Most seem to think that they are still in charge and should get some cred for having been an officer. It doesn’t happen usually. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14455001&postcount=54](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14455001&postcount=54) Both from this thread [I work in a military prison. Ask me anything](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=631030) by [SSG Schwartz](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/member.php). ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convicted-military-officers-rank/640047/3 "2012-11-06T10:31:16Z")
Your question does not cover officers sentenced to death, like in Nuremberg. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convicted-military-officers-rank/640047/4 "2012-11-06T17:46:38Z")
> [@the\_diego](#): > > Your question does not cover officers sentenced to death, like in Nuremberg. True, although Nuremberg was slightly different in that the presiding body of the trial didn’t get it’s authority from the same source as the commission itself (i.e. it wasn’t Germany trying the officers). I didn’t mean to pick on the Hasan case specifically (where, yes, there is a potential death penalty involved). It was simply the first case that came to mind. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convicted-military-officers-rank/640047/5 "2012-11-06T17:47:50Z")
> [@Duckster](#): > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14451873&postcount=11](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14451873&postcount=11) > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14455001&postcount=54](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14455001&postcount=54) > > Both from this thread [I work in a military prison. Ask me anything](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=631030) by [SSG Schwartz](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/member.php). Thank you, **Duckster**. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Jman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jman/32/4416_2.png) [@Jman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jman)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convicted-military-officers-rank/640047/6 "2012-11-06T17:53:05Z")
From everything that I’ve read and heard while I was in, you can not be reduced in rank below what you entered service at. For many officers, this is E-1, but for many others (myself included), it would be O-1…so if I had been convicted of a heinous crime when I was a Captain, I could have been reduced to 2nd Lieutenant, but not lower. However, SSG Schwartz seems to say differently. I do believe the losing of the commission, but I don’t think that results in actually having the rank of E-1. I believe that the official documentation shows reduction to O-1, then dishonorable discharge and loss of commission (so, no rank). Being at E-1 would require enlistment, I believe, which an officer who came in straight away as an officer would not have. I no longer have my commission, as I resigned it when my commitment was up…but I’m not an E-1 now (I have no rank, but would generally be regarded as a former Captain). However, I’ve been told by Army recruiters who looked to get me to sign back up again two years after I resigned my commission that my rank and commission could be reinstated with a simple form or two. (of course, different scenario). ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convicted-military-officers-rank/640047/7 "2012-11-06T17:56:37Z")
> [@Jman](#): > > I no longer have my commission, as I resigned it when my commitment was up…but I’m not an E-1 now (I have no rank, but would generally be regarded as a former Captain). However, I’ve been told by Army recruiters who looked to get me to sign back up again two years after I resigned my commission that my rank and commission could be reinstated with a simple form or two. (of course, different scenario). Just curious why you woul resign your commission. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convicted-military-officers-rank/640047/8 "2012-11-06T18:08:39Z")
> [@Jman](#): > > However, SSG Schwartz seems to say differently. I do believe the losing of the commission, but I don’t think that results in actually having the rank of E-1. I believe that the official documentation shows reduction to O-1, then dishonorable discharge and loss of commission (so, no rank). I do not believe officers can be dishonorably discharged. My understanding (and I may be wrong) is that they can be dismissed, but not receive a DD. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![solosam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@solosam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solosam)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convicted-military-officers-rank/640047/9 "2012-11-06T19:29:02Z")
> [@](#): > > I do believe the losing of the commission, but I don’t think that results in actually having the rank of E-1. Manual of Court Martial page II-129 states: A commissioned or warrant officer or a cadet, or midshipman may not be reduced in grade by any court-martial. However, in time of war or national emergency the Secretary concerned, or such Under Secretary or Assistant Secretary as may be designated by the Secretary concerned, may commute a sentence of dismissal to reduction to any enlisted grade. So for example, if we were in a “total war” scenario where we needed every able-bodied man to fight, an Officer who misbehaves might be reduced to the Enlisted ranks and sent back into battle rather than given a ticket home. > [@](#): > > I do not believe officers can be dishonorably discharged. My understanding (and I may be wrong) is that they can be dismissed, but not receive a DD. This is correct. The MCM reads, on page II-128: A dishonorable discharge applies only to enlisted persons and warrant officers who are not commissioned and may be adjudged only by a general court-martial. (BTW, all Warrant Officers get commissions at CW2, so this would only apply to WO1s on their 2-year probationary period.) ---
**Author:** ![Jman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jman/32/4416_2.png) [@Jman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jman)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convicted-military-officers-rank/640047/10 "2012-11-06T19:32:38Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Just curious why you woul resign your commission. All officers are officers for life unless the commission is resigned. In most typical cases, this is an irrelevant distinction, but the Iraq war and Afghanistan made it completely NOT an irrelevant distinction. Since you are still an officer, even once you’re off the Individual Ready Reserve list (IRR), you are subject to recall in times of national crisis. With Iraq pulling everyone they could out of the IRR, and me being in a shortage branch (Transportation Corps…there were always a shortage of TC officers)…it would have been quite possible that sometime in the 10 years after I finished my obligation that I could have been recalled to active duty. If you resign your commission, you are no longer a member of the armed forces and cannot be recalled. Supposedly, the downside to resigning your commission is that if you decide you want to get back in, you would have to enlist or go through some crazy re-commissioning process and start over again at O-1, but in practice, that’s not the case as I mentioned earlier. If I wanted to get back in, I could have had my commission reinstated at my previous rank. ---
**Author:** ![Jman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jman/32/4416_2.png) [@Jman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jman)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convicted-military-officers-rank/640047/11 "2012-11-06T19:41:17Z")
> [@solosam](#): > > Manual of Court Martial page II-129 states: > > A commissioned or warrant officer or a cadet, or midshipman may not be reduced in grade by any court-martial. However, in time of war or national emergency the Secretary concerned, or such Under Secretary or Assistant Secretary as may be designated by the Secretary concerned, may commute a sentence of dismissal to reduction to any enlisted grade. > > So for example, if we were in a “total war” scenario where we needed every able-bodied man to fight, an Officer who misbehaves might be reduced to the Enlisted ranks and sent back into battle rather than given a ticket home. > > This is correct. The MCM reads, on page II-128: > > A dishonorable discharge applies only to enlisted persons and warrant officers who are not commissioned and may be adjudged only by a general court-martial. > > (BTW, all Warrant Officers get commissions at CW2, so this would only apply to WO1s on their 2-year probationary period.) Thanks for the clarification. Being never actually subject to anything like this, nor having never really known anyone who went through it, I wasn’t 100% clear on all the procedures. I did know one 2LT who tested positive for pot during a routine drug test (moron) and was simply dismissed from service.