# Convicted of rape of a 2-month-old -- what should the penalty be? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 2, 2004, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convicted-of-rape-of-a-2-month-old-what-should-the-penalty-be/222391 "2004-01-02T22:57:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convicted-of-rape-of-a-2-month-old-what-should-the-penalty-be/222391/41 "2004-01-03T11:32:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Siege \* > \*\*Mercedes Lackey came up with what I think is a very neat and fair solution for this sort of thing in one of her books as a punishment for a man who raped his teenage daughters. The punishment was a psychological feedback loop which meant that until he realized how fundamentally and reprehensibly wrong his actions were, he experienced what his daughters experienced. The more he justified his actions, the worse his fear and pain got. > > That sounds appropriate to me. I wish we could set things up so that this creature experienced what the 2 month old did experience, not what he told himself she was experiencing, with those experiences getting worse each time he tried to tell himself they weren’t wrong. Unfortunately, current technology isn’t even close to being up to the job. If it were, however, I would have no problem administering the sentence. > > My heart goes out to his fiance. I cannot imagine how it would feel to find out the love of your life, as he was called in the second link, is something truly monstrous. > > CJ \*\* Same idea as “Clockwork Orange.” But, alas, the ACLU would find a way to prevent it. ---
**Author:** ![Badtz\_Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@Badtz\_Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Badtz_Maru)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convicted-of-rape-of-a-2-month-old-what-should-the-penalty-be/222391/42 "2004-01-03T11:42:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam H. \* > \*\*Rape. His own child. Two months old. I agree with **Scylla.** He isn’t human. That may be one of the worst crimes I’ve ever heard about. \*\* Baby rape is fairly common in South Africa and other nations where sex with a virgin is thought to cure AIDS. This guy is sick, but there’s probably at least a few hundred thousand just as bad in this world, and considering an infant’s lack of ability to communicate, I imagine most of them are never caught. ---
**Author:** ![Slainte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a698b9/32.png) [@Slainte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slainte)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convicted-of-rape-of-a-2-month-old-what-should-the-penalty-be/222391/43 "2004-01-03T13:49:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by WILLASS \* > \*\*I want to know why this is so much worse than someone anally raping their own son, or raping an elderley woman - everyone seems more offended because the baby is 2 months old. While I readily admit that I would happily see this sick fuck rot away in a cage for the rest of his natural, I still think the age of the victim is irrelevant. \*\* Most likely an older son or an elderly woman would probably be able to at least tell someone what happened to them and/or try to get away or fight off the attack (not that they’d necessarily be able to). A two month old baby on the other hand, cannot tell anyone what has happened to them or even futilely try to fight back. What if this wasn’t the first time he did this to the baby? What if her Mom hadn’t walked in and caught him? Unless she was physically injured, possibly no one would have ever known what was going on. I’m not saying that any of these examples are “much worse” than another - they’re all awful. But at least the older son and the elderly woman might have more of a chance of telling someone what happened to them. And **elucidator** , you’re right. I couldn’t do what you described - I’d need something much bigger than a ball peen hammer. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convicted-of-rape-of-a-2-month-old-what-should-the-penalty-be/222391/44 "2004-01-03T14:19:37Z")
And if you’re wrong? What then, tough guy? How many times in recent years have we had people within hours of being executed, and find out that not only they are probably not guilty, they couldn’t possibly _be_ guilty. So what then, after you’ve used your soul to wipe your ass, who will clean it for you? **duffer** already feels qualified to pass judgement on me, on my capacity to protect. My kid is grown, I’ve done mine, I seem to have protected him relatively well, all things considered. I’ll protect you from him, if need be, and him from you. But who’s going to protect you from you? Tormenting the helpless is evil, no amount of sanctimonious blather will make you anything but a torturer. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convicted-of-rape-of-a-2-month-old-what-should-the-penalty-be/222391/45 "2004-01-03T14:28:34Z")
If you don’t think this sick fuck deserves death\*, you should be forced to have him live in your house for the rest of your life. You be responsible for him. \*slow and painful ---
**Author:** ![Slainte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a698b9/32.png) [@Slainte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slainte)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convicted-of-rape-of-a-2-month-old-what-should-the-penalty-be/222391/46 "2004-01-03T14:49:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\*And if you’re wrong? What then, tough guy? > > How many times in recent years have we had people within hours of being executed, and find out that not only they are probably not guilty, they couldn’t possibly _be_ guilty. > > So what then, after you’ve used your soul to wipe your ass, who will clean it for you? > \*\* > [@](#): > > Joseph Lehman Jr., 38, pleaded guilty in October in a plea bargain, hoping to avoid a prison term. > **[Man gets four years in rape of baby](https://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Man-gets-four-years-in-rape-of-baby-1132640.php)** > > Joseph Lehman Jr., 38, pleaded guilty in October in a plea bargain, hoping to avoid a... > [@](#): > > Joseph Lehman Jr. admitted to having oral and manual sexual contact with the baby for about 10 minutes - until Crowder walked in on him. > [@](#): > > In charging papers, Lehman Jr. also admitted to molesting a 9-year-old girl in Maine in 1997, but charges were never filed. [http://news.onemissingperson.org/WA-FEB-10-2003-Will-accused-molester-get-special-treatment.html](http://news.onemissingperson.org/WA-FEB-10-2003-Will-accused-molester-get-special-treatment.html) So, if you were addressing that to me, I don’t think I’m wrong about him. With him being caught in the act and admitting to this charge and another, I’m pretty sure it isn’t an accurate comparison. > [@](#): > > Tormenting the helpless is evil, no amount of sanctimonious blather will make you anything but a torturer. I’ll concur with this. I probably truly could not torture him; a small part of me thinks if it was my child I’d want to though. ---
**Author:** ![fluiddruid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fluiddruid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluiddruid)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convicted-of-rape-of-a-2-month-old-what-should-the-penalty-be/222391/47 "2004-01-03T14:55:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Annie-Xmas \* > \*_If you don’t think this sick fuck deserves death_, you should be forced to have him live in your house for the rest of your life. You be responsible for him. > > \*slow and painful \*\* Right. So if we don’t want to torture someone to death, we have to take them in and take care of them for life. What planet do you live on? What this guy did was reprehensible, no doubt. But, to savage him in unspeakable ways – does that really show how his behavior was cruel and wrong? It degrades us as humans and as a society to even think about raping and torturing him as appropriate. The Constitution didn’t outlaw cruel and unusual punishments for shits and giggles, people. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convicted-of-rape-of-a-2-month-old-what-should-the-penalty-be/222391/48 "2004-01-03T14:58:36Z")
> [@](#): > > Tormenting the helpless is evil, no amount of sanctimonious blather will make you anything but a torturer. True, especially if the helpless is two months old. So no amount of sanctimonious blather is going to make this child molestor anything but a torturer. It will just make you a defender of lenient treatment for the truly evil. Kill him. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convicted-of-rape-of-a-2-month-old-what-should-the-penalty-be/222391/49 "2004-01-03T15:11:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by fluiddruid \* > \*\*Right. So if we don’t want to torture someone to death, we have to take them in and take care of them for life. > > What planet do you live on? > > What this guy did was reprehensible, no doubt. But, to savage him in unspeakable ways – does that really show how his behavior was cruel and wrong? It degrades us as humans and as a society to even think about raping and torturing him as appropriate. > > The Constitution didn’t outlaw cruel and unusual punishments for shits and giggles, people. \*\* It’s funny how people who say “Well, if you want him to die, you be responsible it,” go crazy when someone says “Well, you want him to live, you be responsible for it.” It’s okay for him to live as long as it’s not in your house, right? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convicted-of-rape-of-a-2-month-old-what-should-the-penalty-be/222391/50 "2004-01-03T15:23:06Z")
**Slainte** : I have no doubt I’d feel the same. Not the slightest. I’ve been on this damp blue rock for a while, don’t recall meeting any saints, certainly not making any claims of being in thier company. It is entirely legitimate to use violence to protect the innocent. In fact, that is the only legitimate use of violence. But when protection ceases to be the issue, the legitimacy vanishes with it. Torturing the helpless protects no one. **Shodan** Ever been wrong? Ever been 100% convinced of your own righteousness, and another’s evil, and been wrong? Never? Never once? Well, maybe you _are_ better man than I. I trust you will not be offended if I retain a crumb of doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Rysdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7cd45c/32.png) [@Rysdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysdad)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convicted-of-rape-of-a-2-month-old-what-should-the-penalty-be/222391/51 "2004-01-03T15:30:27Z")
Solitary confinement, no human contact, with an endless loop of a baby crying. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convicted-of-rape-of-a-2-month-old-what-should-the-penalty-be/222391/52 "2004-01-03T15:36:58Z")
I’m afraid he’s very much human. I just read that a child (mostly infants) is killed by its parents on average eight times a year in Denmark – often in what can best be described as regular torture sessions, if the numbers can be translated it’ll be some 400 times a year in the US. If you want to execute every such case, I’m afraid you’ll have to really streamline and industrialize your execution procedures. Trying to dehumanize even such a disgusting person is dangerous. Always we must remember that evil is a potential in every one of us, because we are human. Also I don’t think chemical castration is the right thing to do. By all means kill him if you think his crime demands it, just don’t try to take away his humanity. Down that road lies madness. We should never resort to institutionalized torture. It’ll do nothing but brutalize society and us all. Also putting him a prison with the tacit knowledge that other inmates will handle our dirty laundry is really bad form. Kill your own dog and all that. I’m not categorically against executions. But I think it should be reserved for the truly horrible cases. As disgusting as it sounds, I don’t think this one qualifies. The baby is not dead. Has it suffered permanent damage? Is he a repeat felon? No on all counts as far as I know. It’s worse than anally raping your (older) son because there is higher risk of permanent damage. It worse than raping an old woman because the defenseless has a greater demand on our protection, and a baby is defenseless both physically and mentally (whereas an old woman is only physically defenseless). Also a baby has its whole life in front of it to live with the consequences, whereas an old woman has most of it behind her. It’s worse hurting children, because children has a special right for our protection. So as much as it really pains me I think I must side with **elucidator** on this one. - Rune ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convicted-of-rape-of-a-2-month-old-what-should-the-penalty-be/222391/53 "2004-01-03T15:43:26Z")
He doesn’t HAVE any humanity. With chemical castration, if he eventually develops humanity, it could be reversed. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convicted-of-rape-of-a-2-month-old-what-should-the-penalty-be/222391/54 "2004-01-03T15:51:39Z")
The one lesson from WWII we should never forget is that evil is a human trait, dormant in us all. He is very much human. It’s just that some humans do some really evil things sometimes. For which they should be punished – killed even, just not by taking away their humanity. You castrate him, you undermine his ability for free choice – the very thing that makes us human. Kill him. Put him in a cage and throw the key away. Whatever, just don’t dehumanize him. Also read Clockwork Orange. - Rune ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convicted-of-rape-of-a-2-month-old-what-should-the-penalty-be/222391/55 "2004-01-03T15:59:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > [B **Shodan** > > Ever been wrong? Ever been 100% convinced of your own righteousness, and another’s evil, and been wrong? Never? Never once? > > Well, maybe you _are_ better man than I. I trust you will not be offended if I retain a crumb of doubt. \*\* That’s cheap I wouldn’t have got away with it in a high school debate. Because **Shodan** has once in the past been wrong, there is no system imaginable under which his ideas could function? Try again. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convicted-of-rape-of-a-2-month-old-what-should-the-penalty-be/222391/56 "2004-01-03T16:03:52Z")
Nope. If you didn’t catch on the first time, repetition won’t help. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convicted-of-rape-of-a-2-month-old-what-should-the-penalty-be/222391/57 "2004-01-03T16:08:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\*Nope. If you didn’t catch on the first time, repetition won’t help. \*\* Sorry I still think it’s a semantic cheat. **Shodan** doesn’t provide the burden of proof. Standards may have been used that prove his guit beyond a doubt. He did, after all, confess. If you’re satisfied I don’t understand fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convicted-of-rape-of-a-2-month-old-what-should-the-penalty-be/222391/58 "2004-01-03T16:08:20Z")
> [@](#): > > Shodan > > Ever been wrong? Ever been 100% convinced of your own righteousness, and another’s evil, and been wrong? Never? Never once? Read **Slainte** ’s cites. The pervert has admitted it. He has been convicted. There is an eye witness. If you are just saying, “No, there is no standard of proof I will accept”, at least be honest about it. If you are claiming there is some doubt as to the guilt of this filth, say so. If you are just arguing against the death penalty, then stop equating execution with torture. I have not advocated torture for this rapist, only a quick death. > [@](#): > > Torturing the helpless protects no one. Correct. However, executing those who torture the helpless protects the helpless. > [@](#): > > The other 5%, I want nothing whatever to do with. Then, to quote a previous well-known dolt, take your little basket and skip along, skip along. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convicted-of-rape-of-a-2-month-old-what-should-the-penalty-be/222391/59 "2004-01-03T16:16:31Z")
Whatsmatta you? Can’t come up with your own lines, you gotta cop mine? Of course standards of proof are applicable (though you might want to re-think the certainty of confession, its not as iron-clad as you would like to think…) The difference is, if I’m wrong, I can unlock the door and let the man out. What are you gonna do if you’ve already killed him? Pin a note of apology to his gravestone? “Oooopsy! Sorry about that, really spoiled yer day, huh?” ---
**Author:** ![Gomez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d78d45/32.png) [@Gomez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gomez)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convicted-of-rape-of-a-2-month-old-what-should-the-penalty-be/222391/60 "2004-01-03T16:30:33Z")
**Don’t ask** I think **elucidators** point was that since our judicial system is by no means watertight miscarriages of justice are not an acceptable risk, they’re a mathematical certainty. Any society which routinely executes prisoners and knowingly glosses over innocent deaths in pursuit of some utilitarian idea of a greater good is not far removed from the callous disregard for human life we are supposed to be punishing in the first place. As much as the scum in the OP deserves to be booted off this mortal coil and into a pit of rabid, starved plague rats I’d rather have him live out the rest of his natural life than have his death perpetuate a system which steamrollers over other innocent lives. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convicted-of-rape-of-a-2-month-old-what-should-the-penalty-be/222391.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convicted-of-rape-of-a-2-month-old-what-should-the-penalty-be/222391.md?page=4)