# Convicted of rape of a 2-month-old -- what should the penalty be? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 2, 2004, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convicted-of-rape-of-a-2-month-old-what-should-the-penalty-be/222391 "2004-01-02T22:57:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Slainte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a698b9/32.png) [@Slainte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slainte)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convicted-of-rape-of-a-2-month-old-what-should-the-penalty-be/222391/81 "2004-01-03T19:22:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Metacom \* > \*\*The [Paul Ingram](http://www.religioustolerance.org/ra_ingra.htm) case had both a confession and eyewitnesses, and involved a father raping his daughter. You could easily write an article very similiar to the OP about it. The truth is more complex. Read the link. > > (I’m not trying to say _anything_ more then this: Confessions and eyewitnesses don’t always tell the truth.) \*\* I skimmed the linked article, so perhaps I missed the part about the eye witness but I didn’t see it in there. If there was one, my apologies. What I got from the article was that this confession (and the accusations) were based on “recovered memories” and the strong influence of a questionable church. If Joseph Lehman Jr. turns out to be innocent and to have confessed out of recovered memories and religious brain-washing, I’ll eat crow (well done, served with a red wine, please.) But until then I think I’ll take his confessing and his fiancée’s eye witness account at face value. I would put Paul Ingram into the “not mentally competent” category that I mentioned, for purposes of this discussion. **wring** : > [@](#): > > A. DNA testing after the convicted was executed??? don’t know that there’s ever been a case where DNA testing was allowed to go on after the execution. Admittedly, I don’t have a cite but I think I’ve heard of at least one or two cases where people were executed (before DNA testing was widely available) and later DNA testing was done on hair/blood evidence etc. (once the technology was available) and found that the wrong person was executed. Maybe I have that wrong. > [@](#): > > B. Re: confession - issue, most glaringly obvious was the case of Henry Lee Lucas who had confessed to a Texas murder (claiming quite a few others as well), was on death row for a killing that happened while he was physically in Florida. He wasn’t executed, though, but is still in prison on unrelated charges (ie false confessions happen). Again I will say > [@](#): > > I would suspect most people who are truly innocent don’t confess to something heinous that they didn’t really do. I’m sure there may be a few people who just aren’t mentally competent or who have been coerced into confessing but I don’t believe they are the majority of confessions. Certainly there are exceptions but I’m inclined to believe that **most** people who confess to a crime usually have done it. I think the people who confess to things they haven’t done are the exception, not the rule. I don’t wish to debate the accurateness of the US legal system, I’ve already acknowledges that it’s flawed. I’m not even advocating that Joseph Lehman Jr. be executed; I think he should be in prison. ---
**Author:** ![Slainte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a698b9/32.png) [@Slainte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slainte)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convicted-of-rape-of-a-2-month-old-what-should-the-penalty-be/222391/82 "2004-01-03T19:48:30Z")
**elucidator** : > [@](#): > > If the evidence was stacked against you, and there was a very strong probability of you being executed though innocent, wouldn’t you be likely to “confess”? In the case in this OP there was no possibility of a death sentence. So in this case, no, I would not confess to something I didn’t do, even if the evidence was stacked against me. This is really a different topic, for another thread since the man didn’t confess out of fear of facing the death penalty. > [@](#): > > That said, I am not willing to extract this case in particular and exempt it from my general prohibition against savage and cruel behavior, regardless of the level of evidence. Fair enough. I don’t advocate the death penalty in this case but I’m going to take this confession at face value. YMMV. > [@](#): > > You suspect? Not exactly a firm assertion of certainty, now is it? And you don’t think people will confess to crimes they didn’t commit? Sure they will. Happens all the time. Or they just happen to enter into a conversation with someone in jail where they confess to the charges and specifications, and then take the trouble to lay out the circumstances of the crime in excruciating detail. To a complete stranger. Happens every damn day. Yes, I suspect. I already addressed that I realize people confess to crimes that they didn’t commit out of mental instability and coercion. Do you believe that **most** confessions are false? I don’t. > [@](#): > > They aren’t the “majority of confessions”? You must have mis-phrased that, surely this is not a comfort to you? “Most of the people we kill are probably guilty, so OK, what the heck.” In regard to the OP, I feel comfortable taking the confession at face value. No one will be dying because of it. My views on the death penalty are really a topic for another thread. I’m not arguing that the man in question should be executed. I’m just arguing that I think he has been fairly tried and convicted. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2004, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convicted-of-rape-of-a-2-month-old-what-should-the-penalty-be/222391/83 "2004-01-05T01:56:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by timothy98765 \* > \*\*Fry the fucker. > And I do mean the baby. \*\* That was a jerkish remark. Do not make such remarks in the future. Lynn For the Straight Dope ---
**Author:** ![clayton\_e](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@clayton\_e](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clayton_e)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2004, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convicted-of-rape-of-a-2-month-old-what-should-the-penalty-be/222391/84 "2004-01-05T12:24:28Z")
I don’t believe in the death penalty but I do believe there should be a seperate set of guidelines dealing with the sentencing when child rape, hate crimes, and other especially terrible crimes. There is a point where a crime is so terrible that the offender does not deserve the ability to get out early on parole, plea bargen a lesser sentence, or in any other way get anything but a fair trial among his or her peers. The case where a woman was forced to undress and was tied to a coffee table and raped by a freak then buried in a pre-dug grave in the woods is an example of this. IIRC they didn’t find the photographic evidence until after the not-guilty verdict and the guy got off with just a couple years for pergury in the first trial. Some people don’t deserve to live, but we’re not the ones to pull the switch. ---
**Author:** ![clayton\_e](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@clayton\_e](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clayton_e)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2004, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convicted-of-rape-of-a-2-month-old-what-should-the-penalty-be/222391/85 "2004-01-05T12:27:14Z")
Oh, I was trying to say that the failure of the system in the example I showed was a reason for reform, if that wasn’t clear. ---
**Author:** ![Angel\_Heart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@Angel\_Heart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angel_Heart)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convicted-of-rape-of-a-2-month-old-what-should-the-penalty-be/222391/86 "2004-01-10T03:33:22Z")
I just say let him into general population. I say he either kills himself or gets killed in less than 72 hours–he’s only about my size and can’t defend himself against bigger guys. Why should this waste of skin take up our tax dollars? ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convicted-of-rape-of-a-2-month-old-what-should-the-penalty-be/222391/87 "2004-01-10T14:53:29Z")
What gets me is that the prosecuter was only going to give him six months. It took the judge to sentence him to four years. **Baker** , I think you’re confusing the Star Treks. I believe the episode you’re referring to was on DS9, and it was Chief O’Brien. He ended up killing his cell mate, and his sentence was only a short time, although he thought it was decades. What about the guy’s father? This happened to his own granddaughter…how must he feel? ---
**Author:** ![Alias](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a88e4f/32.png) [@Alias](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alias)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convicted-of-rape-of-a-2-month-old-what-should-the-penalty-be/222391/88 "2004-01-10T15:52:58Z")
Being a mother myself, reading that horrible article brought on many violent, frightening fantasies. I didn’t know I was capeable of such evil thoughts. That man is a monster, and I can only hope he is NEVER allowed in the general population again. The idea of raping a baby is just sickening! What the hell is wrong with people! Also, if that were my daughter, you’d better believe I’d be ready and willing to smash that guy’s nuts with a hammer. It might make me a sick person, but I’d do it without a second thought. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2004, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convicted-of-rape-of-a-2-month-old-what-should-the-penalty-be/222391/89 "2004-01-10T16:02:40Z")
Lucy, if I ever kill someone with really good reason, can I call you as a character witness? You’re a witness to what I want to do, and, in essence I’m confessing beforehand. (_dances to avoidance of the death penalty_) Again, anyone glad you had parents that didn’t follow _his_ reasoning? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convicted-of-rape-of-a-2-month-old-what-should-the-penalty-be/222391.md?page=4)