# Conviction rates for rape should be low, efforts to raise them are inherently unjust **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 10, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conviction-rates-for-rape-should-be-low-efforts-to-raise-them-are-inherently-unjust/643630 "2012-12-10T19:01:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conviction-rates-for-rape-should-be-low-efforts-to-raise-them-are-inherently-unjust/643630/82 "2012-12-18T00:51:01Z")
> [@margin](#): > > People are often reluctant to face facts. If someone meets all the definitions of it, are you really going to argue that because they were reluctant to call it by the dictionary word it doesn’t fit them? > > That’s really weak sauce. Is groping synonymous with rape? ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conviction-rates-for-rape-should-be-low-efforts-to-raise-them-are-inherently-unjust/643630/83 "2012-12-18T00:58:26Z")
It’s sexual assault. Do you contest that? I see you didn’t answer my question. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conviction-rates-for-rape-should-be-low-efforts-to-raise-them-are-inherently-unjust/643630/84 "2012-12-18T06:46:38Z")
> [@margin](#): > > People are often reluctant to face facts. If someone meets all the definitions of it, are you really going to argue that because they were reluctant to call it by the dictionary word it doesn’t fit them? > > That’s really weak sauce. Why do you only trust women who say they _were_ raped? ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conviction-rates-for-rape-should-be-low-efforts-to-raise-them-are-inherently-unjust/643630/85 "2012-12-18T06:48:34Z")
> [@margin](#): > > The Kanin study, which I just mentioned, where the guy doing the study refused to name the town, the police department, or the method by which they came to their conclusions that rape victims all lie? Or the excuses they used to justify polygraphing rape victims—but not rapists? > > And he links to a notorious MRA site. > > I call shenanigans. MRAs? Yeah, no. Links, in fact, to the text of the study, and he does in fact state his method. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conviction-rates-for-rape-should-be-low-efforts-to-raise-them-are-inherently-unjust/643630/86 "2012-12-18T08:30:54Z")
> [@margin](#): > > It’s sexual assault. Do you contest that? I see you didn’t answer my question. Your question was: \*are you really going to argue that because they were reluctant to call it by the dictionary word it doesn’t fit them? \* Yes. It’s absolutely appropriate to insist that groping not be called rape, even though both are fairly described as sexual assault, because the two acts should not be punished identically. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2012, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conviction-rates-for-rape-should-be-low-efforts-to-raise-them-are-inherently-unjust/643630/87 "2012-12-22T03:29:22Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > Links, in fact, to the text of the study, and he does in fact state his method. That is interesting and fun, but unfortunately there is still a problem which is that his method is total shit. 🙂 🙂 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2012, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conviction-rates-for-rape-should-be-low-efforts-to-raise-them-are-inherently-unjust/643630/88 "2012-12-22T19:51:59Z")
> [@colander](#): > > That is interesting and fun, but unfortunately there is still a problem which is that his method is total shit. 🙂 🙂 🙂 What, because of the polygraphs? A minor issue. No-one was forced to take one, and the results were disregarded by the study. Anyway, he did a follow up study at two university campuses, and that found an even higher percentage of false accusations, without polygraphs being used. And Eugene Kanin was at one time popular with feminists. He was cited in the Koss report. Feminists didn’t turn against him because of his methodology, they turned against him because of his findings. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2012, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conviction-rates-for-rape-should-be-low-efforts-to-raise-them-are-inherently-unjust/643630/89 "2012-12-22T20:43:14Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > What, because of the polygraphs? A minor issue. No-one was forced to take one, and the results were disregarded by the study. > > Anyway, he did a follow up study at two university campuses, and that found an even higher percentage of false accusations, without polygraphs being used. > > And Eugene Kanin was at one time popular with feminists. He was cited in the Koss report. Feminists didn’t turn against him because of his methodology, they turned against him because of his findings. You keep citing this useless study, and we keep explaining to you that it’s shit. When did you suddenly decide the police are God’s Angels of Justice Sent From Heaven on High? It is not difficult to get false recantations during a police interrogation, and that is the **only** measure by which Kanin’s accusations were deemed “false”. Not DNA testing or quizzing witnesses. Not secret audio recorders in the holding cell. Just whether or not the police were able to badger complainants into dropping their reports on pain of charges of false reports for failing the “test”. Seriously, **blindboyard.** Enough linking to inane blog posts and studies that don’t even support your point. What kind of debating technique is that? Use your own words to formulate substantive arguments, make a sincere attempt to defend them against other posters’ criticisms, and revise your beliefs when the available evidence indicates that they’re wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Sleeping\_Synapse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Sleeping\_Synapse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleeping_Synapse)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conviction-rates-for-rape-should-be-low-efforts-to-raise-them-are-inherently-unjust/643630/90 "2012-12-23T01:30:42Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > Conviction rates for rape should be low, efforts to raise them are inherently unjust. I, and a few billion others, would disagree… [http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/bus-gang-rape-reveals-indias-misogyny-epidemic/story-fnb64oi6-1226542060724](http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/bus-gang-rape-reveals-indias-misogyny-epidemic/story-fnb64oi6-1226542060724) ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conviction-rates-for-rape-should-be-low-efforts-to-raise-them-are-inherently-unjust/643630/91 "2012-12-23T01:40:48Z")
In reality we do not know what percentage of about 950,000 men convicted of sex offenses in USA are innocent. All we know is that most of them were convicted on the accuser’s word alone. In my opinion, every man, particularly every dating man should learn about the tremendous danger of being given a long prison sentence for a crime he did not commit. My point is that men should be as concerned about the danger of false accusation as women are about the danger of sexual assault. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conviction-rates-for-rape-should-be-low-efforts-to-raise-them-are-inherently-unjust/643630/92 "2012-12-23T03:17:32Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > All we know is that most of them were convicted on the accuser’s word alone. Really? How do you know this thing specifically? Because I think you’re either lying or making things up. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conviction-rates-for-rape-should-be-low-efforts-to-raise-them-are-inherently-unjust/643630/93 "2012-12-23T03:25:14Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > Really? How do you know this thing specifically? Because I think you’re either lying or making things up. In most date rape cases the lack of consent can be proved by the accuser’s assertion alone. What percentage of these convictions are false is unknown. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conviction-rates-for-rape-should-be-low-efforts-to-raise-them-are-inherently-unjust/643630/94 "2012-12-23T03:27:20Z")
So “date rape”, not the original statistic that you claimed. And you have no evidence that just the word of the victim alone resulted in the conviction. Just making sure. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conviction-rates-for-rape-should-be-low-efforts-to-raise-them-are-inherently-unjust/643630/95 "2012-12-23T03:29:29Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > So “date rape”, not the original statistic that you claimed. And you have no evidence that just the word of the victim alone resulted in the conviction. Just making sure. Most rape convictions are for date rape – based on the **accuser** ’s word alone. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conviction-rates-for-rape-should-be-low-efforts-to-raise-them-are-inherently-unjust/643630/96 "2012-12-23T11:50:30Z")
> [@colander](#): > > You keep citing this useless study, and we keep explaining to you that it’s shit. You keep claiming it’s shit, that’s all. No reason beyond the polygraphs has actually been provided. > [@](#): > > When did you suddenly decide the police are God’s Angels of Justice Sent From Heaven on High? It is not difficult to get false recantations during a police interrogation, and that is the **only** measure by which Kanin’s accusations were deemed “false”. Not DNA testing or quizzing witnesses. Not secret audio recorders in the holding cell. Just whether or not the police were able to badger complainants into dropping their reports on pain of charges of false reports for failing the “test”. Why would a claimed victim be in a holding cell? These are generally seen as strengths. Police are known for beating confessions out of people, remembering when this study took place, but not generally for beating recantations out of rape victims. That’s just something you’ve dreamt up in your own head. DNA and witnesses and so on can be misinterpreted, that’s why Kanin and others haven’t taken them as evidence of dishonesty on the part of possibly rape victims. No evidence is enough for Kanin to say “this accusation was false”, no opinion by police or prosecutors or judges or juries is enough for him to decide it was a lie, the only situation in which he concluded that an accusation wasn’t true is when the accuser herself says it’s not true. If anything that will lead to a low figure. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conviction-rates-for-rape-should-be-low-efforts-to-raise-them-are-inherently-unjust/643630/97 "2012-12-23T11:51:50Z")
> [@Sleeping\_Synapse](#): > > I, and a few billion others, would disagree… [http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/bus-gang-rape-reveals-indias-misogyny-epidemic/story-fnb64oi6-1226542060724](http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/bus-gang-rape-reveals-indias-misogyny-epidemic/story-fnb64oi6-1226542060724) A two paragraph article about a rape in India? ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conviction-rates-for-rape-should-be-low-efforts-to-raise-them-are-inherently-unjust/643630/98 "2012-12-24T05:54:19Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > You keep claiming it’s shit, that’s all. No reason beyond the polygraphs has actually been provided. > > Why would a claimed victim be in a holding cell? These are generally seen as strengths. Police are known for beating confessions out of people, remembering when this study took place, but not generally for beating recantations out of rape victims. That’s just something you’ve dreamt up in your own head. DNA and witnesses and so on can be misinterpreted, that’s why Kanin and others haven’t taken them as evidence of dishonesty on the part of possibly rape victims. No evidence is enough for Kanin to say “this accusation was false”, no opinion by police or prosecutors or judges or juries is enough for him to decide it was a lie, the only situation in which he concluded that an accusation wasn’t true is when the accuser herself says it’s not true. If anything that will lead to a low figure. Do you think this police department performed polygraphs on every citizen who reported theft or assault? Of fucking course not. That would be ridiculous. The police only do that to people who they think are lying. And yet, this police department had an official, explicit policy that **all rape complainants were to be interrogated.** Full stop. Yes, I think that is a pretty good sign that this small-town police department was inclined towards a particular suspicion of rape accusations. Most people who were adults at the time would not find this to be a particularly surprising fact. Do you also believe every rape “confession” that comes out of a poly interrogation? If so, I imagine the people over at Project Innocence would like to have a word with you. Cite a real study or get out. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conviction-rates-for-rape-should-be-low-efforts-to-raise-them-are-inherently-unjust/643630/99 "2012-12-24T07:24:54Z")
Every time a discussion like this starts, people take sides - with the end result being varying positions of “but rape is different” and “no its not”. Speaking as a man, one of my greatest fears would be being accused of rape. I have had two experiences - on one occasion I was falsely accused of pulling a knife on someone, and on another I had sex with a drunk girl who later regretted it. Luckily she made no accusation against me. We have all seen cases where the woman reports that she FELT intimidated, and to me this has always been the fear as a man. That a woman can be intimidated even when that is not the guy’s intent. It’s hard to argue the same for theft, that there was intimidation absent an overt, specific threat. Yet for rape it is possible and accepted. The fear is in where the line lays between “persistance” and “threat”. It has also been my limited experience that my partner likes to feel pursued and attractive - again, when do you cross the line between “flattering attention” and “creepy threat”. Sitting on a message board, it is easy to say - in real life, when people have different ideas, different cultural beliefs and different standards, it is not such an easy discussion. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conviction-rates-for-rape-should-be-low-efforts-to-raise-them-are-inherently-unjust/643630/100 "2012-12-25T09:55:58Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > We have all seen cases where the woman reports that she FELT intimidated, and to me this has always been the fear as a man. That a woman can be intimidated even when that is not the guy’s intent. > > It’s hard to argue the same for theft, that there was intimidation absent an overt, specific threat. Yet for rape it is possible and accepted. > > The fear is in where the line lays between “persistance” and “threat”. > > It has also been my limited experience that my partner likes to feel pursued and attractive - again, when do you cross the line between “flattering attention” and “creepy threat”. I saw an SNL sketch on youtube, about avoiding allegations of sexual harrassment. The three pieces of advice it ended with were “Be attractive, don’t be unattractive and be attractive”. What men do to be regarded as creepy or to be successful lovers is basically the same, the difference is whether the woman wants that particular man to do it. The rom-com rapist scenario. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2012, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conviction-rates-for-rape-should-be-low-efforts-to-raise-them-are-inherently-unjust/643630/101 "2012-12-25T17:47:01Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > What men do to be regarded as creepy or to be successful lovers is basically the same, the difference is whether the woman wants that particular man to do it. You’re so close to understanding, but yet so far… Yes, _consent from the woman involved_ is pretty much the gold standard by which we decide rape. I know it seems terribly unfair that women get to decide who they sleep with, sometimes based on things as fickle as _her own attraction_, but, nonetheless, that is the way it works. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conviction-rates-for-rape-should-be-low-efforts-to-raise-them-are-inherently-unjust/643630.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/conviction-rates-for-rape-should-be-low-efforts-to-raise-them-are-inherently-unjust/643630.md?page=6)