# Convince Bricker that not every Obama supporter is a tool **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 5, 2008, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-bricker-that-not-every-obama-supporter-is-a-tool/462138 "2008-09-05T05:32:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-bricker-that-not-every-obama-supporter-is-a-tool/462138/81 "2008-09-05T16:51:49Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > He stayed out of public financing so that he _could_ have more control over his message, but that does not give him absolute power to stop any one else from fighting back just a nasty as its been given. To expect that it would otherwise, or to expect that you could somehow quantify what people are not doing when you can’t even define what it is that are talking about, is a bit unrealistic, don’t you think? In fairness, I think he stayed out of public financing because he unexpectedly had umpteen zillion dollars. But you’re right. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-bricker-that-not-every-obama-supporter-is-a-tool/462138/82 "2008-09-05T17:01:42Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > What I think many conservatives don’t see, or refuse to acknowledge is that (most) liberals are shouting ‘hypocrite’ not ‘sinner’. What makes homosexual trysts in airport bathrooms so damming isn’t the homosexual part, it’s the part where that person earlier denounced the same. Politicians exposed with hookers is so much worse if that politician is also the family values preacher. Governor Palin asking the public to accept her daughter’s personal choice while pushing for legislation to deny that choice to other families is hypocritical. > > For conservatives to denounce the entire subject as nothing more than muck raking is disingenuous. I disagree. _Hypocrisy_ is espousing one belief and practicing another. Palin’s daughter didn’t have an abortion; Palin (presumably) seeks legislation denying anyone the right to an abortion. That’s not hypocritical. You’ve tried to turn it into hypocrisy by saying that Palin asks the public to accept her daughter’s “choice,” as though abortion is also a choice she would have asked acceptance for. But it’s not, and no hypocrisy is in play here. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-bricker-that-not-every-obama-supporter-is-a-tool/462138/83 "2008-09-05T17:09:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I disagree. _Hypocrisy_ is espousing one belief and practicing another. Palin’s daughter didn’t have an abortion; Palin (presumably) seeks legislation denying anyone the right to an abortion. That’s not hypocritical. You’ve tried to turn it into hypocrisy by saying that Palin asks the public to accept her daughter’s “choice,” as though abortion is also a choice she would have asked acceptance for. But it’s not, and no hypocrisy is in play here. What is difficult to reconcile, however, is that the same warmth and acceptance of “life happening” to Sarah Palin’s family was not extended to Lynne Spears’ family. A braver soul than my might call this a word that starts with H. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-bricker-that-not-every-obama-supporter-is-a-tool/462138/84 "2008-09-05T17:14:33Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > As long as you brought this up, did she actually request the choice of an abortion or was it a choice to get married and raise the child as opposed to putting it up for adoption? I assume the “choice” referenced is the latter, since the former shouldn’t be referred to by a pro-life person as a choice at all. _That_ would be hypocritical. I think this is a time when loaded language is getting in the way of communication. “Keeping the baby” and “made a choice” and “privacy” are all words/phrases that are loaded within the political framework. Pro-abortion rights people read them and say, “So she got to make a choice about abortion but she wants to deny me that choice. Hypocrisy!” but anti-abortion people read them and say, “She’s going to keep the child to raise and should be left alone to raise it. There’s no hypocrisy here.” Perhaps the Palin position would be firmer if only there were a Constitutional right to privacy. Hmm. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-bricker-that-not-every-obama-supporter-is-a-tool/462138/85 "2008-09-05T17:14:52Z")
I have no interest in Palin’s family. I would be happy to never talk about them again. But I want her out of mine. She does not have the right to decide what my children may read and whether they should be able to make decisions about the size of their family. If she steps over the bounds ,we will too. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-bricker-that-not-every-obama-supporter-is-a-tool/462138/86 "2008-09-05T17:18:39Z")
Never mind. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-bricker-that-not-every-obama-supporter-is-a-tool/462138/87 "2008-09-05T17:35:30Z")
**Bricker** I know that those first threads are now gone, but no the first threads about her were not relating to her family or to judgments about her family. They were about her being a lightweight in any skill set needed to take over the Presidency on a moment’s notice and about her far right belief set. That and fact checking some of her claims only to find that the truth had not been well served. The next set were how would this effect the horse race aspects. (People like me prematurely declaring that this now really did fork McCain.) _Then_ there was _one_ that linked to the speculation about her not being Trig’s mother as the alternative was that she was an unbelievably big idiot with amazingly reckless judgment. That and several other items that required separate leaps of accepting bizarreness with such huge willing suspensions of disbelief that the single bizarre explanation of a fake pregnancy seemed more likely. Or less unlikely. Occam’s razor y’know. Those speculations were NOT in the MSM. From there PALIN threw her daughter onto the train tracks and called attention to her at the height of the public’s hunger for any information about who Palin is at all. Another item of questionable judgment. Posters here have, for the most part, been amazingly restrained, and the numbers of sources taking cheap shots is amazingly small given the temptation. The worst I’ve heard was from Leno I think. Hardly the Democratic media machine. Think if you will how the masses would be attacking if it _wasn’t_ for Obama’s call for restraint, and his wisely pointing out how his mother was a single mother at 18 and how she had been one of his heros? The nature of the debate is improved by some nonzero amount. To expect the nasty side to totally disappear in one cycle - or ever - would be silly. Surely you are not so naive? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-bricker-that-not-every-obama-supporter-is-a-tool/462138/88 "2008-09-05T17:43:00Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I started to think – naive in the extreme, I admit now – that if Obama held to this position, and he won, it would transform the way campaigns are done. Down the line, it would become reprehensible, or the mark of desperation, to launch personal attacks or lying ads. > > Then Palin erupted. There are plenty of things to criticize about Sarah Palin. She’s advocated the teaching of Creationism in public school. She has very little elected office experience relevant to her proposed job as VP, including effectively no foreign policy experience. > > And what did I read here? > > The first thing that got major play here was the serious discussion of whther she faked her pregnancy to conceal her daughter’s pregnancy. So you are doing that: you are judging Obama’s campaign by the dialogue on this message board. > [@](#): > > Then when that was debunked by news of her daughter’s pregnancy I believe you are in error. No such debunking has taken place. We’ve got a thread specifically about whether the door’s been shut on that rumor. Feel free to join in and debunk away, but it hasn’t happened yet. > [@](#): > > the attacks (seldom acknowledging their first error) shifted smoothly to her choices about where to deliver her baby No, that was present from the very beginning in the Lost Weekend’s ‘babygate’ thread. No shift was necessary. I believe **DSeid** made that argument just a few posts in. > [@](#): > > and how poor a mother she is because her teen daughter was pregnant. I believe you misspelled “how poor a mother she is because she revealed her teen daughter’s pregnancy, rather than revealing her own medical records, in order to quash the ‘babygate’ rumors.” > [@](#): > > Those got more play in discussion here than Creationism, foreign policy experience, or time in office. You know what? This isn’t the only place online that a lot of us hang out anymore. And the lefty blogosphere was already doing a bang-up job on creationism, Troopergate, foreign policy experience, her penchant for lobbying for porky earmarks, and all the rest of it. Besides, very little of that was _debatable_. It takes two sides to make a debate, and with most of this stuff, as Tevye said, “There is no ‘other hand.’” It’s hardly worth debating people who’d take the contrary position on these issues. > [@](#): > > So I read all these… and I began to think that I had been nuts. Even if Obama insisted on a clean campaign, no one else (on either side) was going to care. Nothing Obama did, even if he won, was going to make any changes in this area. > > So that essentially took the one issue that had me supporting Obama off the table. It was an impossible standard to hold anyone to, I now see. Whatever. It’s not the stuff I’d first (or second, or third) bring up if someone asked me what my thoughts were about Palin. But it was _fun_ to debate it. It wasn’t a smear - hell, it would have exonerated her, if true - so there didn’t seem to be any harm in it. It was simply _fun_. Don’t be such a stuffed shirt, OK? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-bricker-that-not-every-obama-supporter-is-a-tool/462138/89 "2008-09-05T17:46:24Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I disagree. _Hypocrisy_ is espousing one belief and practicing another. Palin’s daughter didn’t have an abortion; Palin (presumably) seeks legislation denying anyone the right to an abortion. That’s not hypocritical. You’ve tried to turn it into hypocrisy by saying that Palin asks the public to accept her daughter’s “choice,” as though abortion is also a choice she would have asked acceptance for. But it’s not, and no hypocrisy is in play here. She is asking us to applaud Bristol’s choice, and her choice too. And I do. It was her choice, it was well thought out I’m sure, and no one should even have an opinion about it. But we don’t know if Bristol actually had a choice about keeping the baby, since her having an abortion would destroy her mother’s career. She might well have chosen the same way if she did, but one wonders. But that is private also. The hypocrisy comes not from them choosing to have the babies, since they do indeed encourage everyone to do likewise. It comes from extolling the process of choice while trying to deny it to others. I have not heard anyone, here at least, say they made the wrong choices about having the children. What do you think the reaction would be on the Republican side if the daughter of candidate X chose to have an abortion? Do you think it would be kept private? Do you think they would support the process of choice? I know you are opposed to abortion, but do you think others who are ardently opposed would offer privacy to the daughter? ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-bricker-that-not-every-obama-supporter-is-a-tool/462138/90 "2008-09-05T18:30:05Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > So far most of Obama’s supporters, on SDMB as evidenced in this thread, are not interested in following Obama’s example. At all. He’s a Presidential candidate, not a preacher. His _job_, should he be elected, will be to run the country, not dictate social mores. Sorry, but I, for one, don’t live my life based on the “examples” of politicians, regardless of affiliation. Nor do I feel the need to. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-bricker-that-not-every-obama-supporter-is-a-tool/462138/91 "2008-09-05T18:31:04Z")
… ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-bricker-that-not-every-obama-supporter-is-a-tool/462138/92 "2008-09-05T18:32:27Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] I started to think – naive in the extreme, I admit now – that if Obama held to this position, and he won, it would transform the way campaigns are done. Down the line, it would become reprehensible, or the mark of desperation, to launch personal attacks or lying ads…So I read all these (threads on the SDMB)… and I began to think that I had been nuts. Even if Obama insisted on a clean campaign, no one else (on either side) was going to care. Nothing Obama did, even if he won, was going to make any changes in this area. So that essentially took the one issue that had me supporting Obama off the table. [/QUOTE] Let’s see…Palin’s family problems hit the news, Obama (and Biden) speak out against bringing them up as a campaign issue, but some people (including a proportion of those on the Dope finding fault with Palin’s VP candidacy), discuss them anyway. So because **Bricker** perceives a failure of Obama to bring about a radical transformation of American politics “down the line” (read: immediately), he just can’t vote for the guy. This would be hard to swallow coming from from a newly registered 18-year-old who just emerged from a convent. We would have to be naive in the extreme to buy such an explanation from a supposedly savvy lawyer. Vote for whoever you want, but spare us the “you made me do it” rationale. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-bricker-that-not-every-obama-supporter-is-a-tool/462138/93 "2008-09-05T18:48:09Z")
Why on earth should I respond to a toddler whine for attention? ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-bricker-that-not-every-obama-supporter-is-a-tool/462138/94 "2008-09-05T18:51:47Z")
Maybe Mr. Bricker could comment on Palin’s _God’s war_ statement in relation to his definition of looney left. \*"Our leaders are sending them out on a task that is from God,” Palin says. “There is a plan and that is God’s plan.” \* Somehow I haven’t seen anything from the left that pegs the looney meter as far into the red as her statement does. And she might one day become the CIC. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-bricker-that-not-every-obama-supporter-is-a-tool/462138/95 "2008-09-05T18:53:02Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I wonder why **Bricker** isn’t bothered by the right wing blogs that accuse Obama of being a Muslim, of literally being the Antichrist, of not really being an American, of being gay, of being a murderer, of being a crackhead,and , of course, of being a “nigger.” (HINT: The answer “that stuff wasn’t in the legitimate media” won’t do. The legitimate media have most certainly reported on the fact that these rumors exist – and [Bricker is on record as saying that counts as “media coverage”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10151616&postcount=76).) ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-bricker-that-not-every-obama-supporter-is-a-tool/462138/96 "2008-09-05T18:53:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So let’s have THOSE debates. Is the “New Thread” button broken on your SDMB? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-bricker-that-not-every-obama-supporter-is-a-tool/462138/97 "2008-09-05T18:56:45Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > **Resolved: Obama apparently does not inspire his followers to be better people.** Meh. If you look at the historical record by the same standard (i.e. only displays of assholery count), neither did Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-bricker-that-not-every-obama-supporter-is-a-tool/462138/98 "2008-09-05T19:04:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I started to think – naive in the extreme, I admit now – that **if Obama held to this position, and he won** , it would transform the way campaigns are done. Down the line, it would become reprehensible, or the mark of desperation, to launch personal attacks or lying ads. Ah. So it’s Obama’s fault for not being able to violate one of the fundamental laws of physics, and enable an event in November 2008 to influence other events in August-September 2008. Gotcha. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-bricker-that-not-every-obama-supporter-is-a-tool/462138/99 "2008-09-05T19:12:06Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Ah. So it’s Obama’s fault for not being able to violate one of the fundamental laws of physics, and enable an event in November 2008 to influence other events in August-September 2008. Gotcha. That’s the problem with you folks in the reality-based community! While you’re dealing with your reality, we’ll be busy creating _new_ realities, ones where causality isn’t constrained by legalistic trivialities such as the unidirectionality of time. And while you’re catching up and dealing with _that_ reality, we’ll be creating even newer realities… ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2008, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-bricker-that-not-every-obama-supporter-is-a-tool/462138/100 "2008-09-05T20:18:52Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > As long as you brought this up, did she actually request the choice of an abortion or was it a choice to get married and raise the child as opposed to putting it up for adoption? Great point, I’ve been wondering about this also. [QUOTE=Bricker] I disagree. Hypocrisy is espousing one belief and practicing another. Palin’s daughter didn’t have an abortion; Palin (presumably) seeks legislation denying anyone the right to an abortion. That’s not hypocritical. You’ve tried to turn it into hypocrisy by saying that Palin asks the public to accept her daughter’s “choice,” as though abortion is also a choice she would have asked acceptance for. But it’s not, and no hypocrisy is in play here. [/QUOTE] I’m not sure. The person denouncing abortion isn’t now getting one, however, asking the public to accept a decision her child has made and seeking to legislate to deny that choice to others is…wrong. If the last part isn’t hypocrisy what is it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-bricker-that-not-every-obama-supporter-is-a-tool/462138.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-bricker-that-not-every-obama-supporter-is-a-tool/462138.md?page=6)