# Convince Bricker that not every Obama supporter is a tool **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 5, 2008, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-bricker-that-not-every-obama-supporter-is-a-tool/462138 "2008-09-05T05:32:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-bricker-that-not-every-obama-supporter-is-a-tool/462138/101 "2008-09-06T01:09:33Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Even if this is true, it really does not matter. From what I have seen in the last week or so (through the Palin announcement and both conventions) is that those folks who are reasonable and would like a serious discussion are simply going to avoid any such discussions on the SDMB. Why? Because the posters from both sides who are overzealous in their beliefs are going to not merely drown out the reasonable voices with post after post of bile and invective (and fact free illogic), but those zealots are going to simply ignore any thoughtful post. Who wants to spend the effort to think about the issues and actually articulate them when it appears that their thoughts will plummet like stones without a single acknowledgement, lost in a sea of venom? > > And the passions are really running high on this election. There are posters (Right and Left) whom I would have characterized as thoughtful on August 24 who have praised their candidates as the embodiment of Washington, Lincoln, Marcus Aurelius, Plato and Jesus while disparaging their opponents’ candidates as unqualified to sweep kennels much less run for dog-catcher. We’re talking about senators and a governor here. Even if one believes that the opposition is completely wrong-headed, the claims that they have no substance or capability are ludicrous. I have even seen such nonsense posted by (previously) “thoughtful” posters when someone did try to inject some rational thought into the threads. > > What is my point? **Bricker** ’s rant was silly, not because he was wrong that there is a lot of emotional, unthinking personal antagonism toward the Republican candidates from their opponents–there clearly is. (Just as there appears to be the same emotional, unthinking hatred directed toward the Democrats.) It was silly because it was based on the idea that a small handful of loud and obnoxious people are completely representative of a much larger group of people who remain silent, not out of cowardice or agreement with the zealots, but simply because there is no reason to believe that their voices will be heard above that of the shouters. > Go to a pep rally some time and attempt to carry on a discussion regarding the athleticism and tactics of a team being cheered. That is what I have watched for the last few weeks. Such attitudes have always been here, of course, and was clearly present in the last couple of elections as well as the Democratic primaries, but the number of purportedly reasonable posters who are now willing to disregard facts to chant “_Our Team! Our Team! Our Team!_” over and over again is amazing. > > (I also find it interesting that the “Right” seems to be having a bit of a resurgence on the board. Generally I guess that the Left to Right ratio is about 10:1, here. In the last two weeks, I would guess that among the shouters it is more like 6:1 these days. I have not logged all the posters and kept assiduous notes; it is just my impression. I do not think that this “means” anything. I doubt that the Left has done anything good or bad to bring out more folks on the Right. But it is interesting to watch, nevertheless.) Great Fucking Post! I especially like the way that it proves it’s own thesis by being completely ignored. My epiphany today was that I would like to switch up the ticket. McCain/Biden versus Obama/Palin. The latter is my dream ticket. Anything they both support is ok in my book. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-bricker-that-not-every-obama-supporter-is-a-tool/462138/102 "2008-09-06T01:15:57Z")
[QUOTE=Scylla] McCain/Biden versus Obama/Palin. The latter is my dream ticket. Anything they both support is ok in my book. [/QUOTE] Oh, this is classic! Agree completely. What’s funny is how the dynamic of just about every thread in GD (and quite a few in The Pit) would change if this were the case. Would be hilarious to see what would be posted on an alternative universe 'dope and compare and contrast the responses of the majority of posters talking about this subject! -XT ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-bricker-that-not-every-obama-supporter-is-a-tool/462138/103 "2008-09-06T01:21:34Z")
Make it Obama/McCain and it might fly with me. But it took Palin for me to realize that there’s a woman in politics I fear/hate more than Hillary. ---
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-bricker-that-not-every-obama-supporter-is-a-tool/462138/104 "2008-09-06T01:34:16Z")
> [@Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](#): > > Most rational people, I find, agree with me (when they don’t, I can argue that they are irrational, which is very tidy and gives me my afternoons off). I like this very much. You have my vote.🆒 ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-bricker-that-not-every-obama-supporter-is-a-tool/462138/105 "2008-09-06T02:04:33Z")
The party that swifboated both Kerry and McCain suddenly is above the fray. Sadly no. they lowed the discourse to never before levels. Now they are sensitive. Now we see McCain as a hero again. When Bush ran against him his service was discredited. They claimed he talked and turned on fellow prisoners. They make it hard to keep the level high. I do not care about her family. I do about her deciding what books are in the library,whether creationism is taught in schools and whether sex education can be taught. The fact that her daughter got knocked up is only interesting because it refutes the idea that you can control your children. You teach them and let them go . Things go wrong for people from all walks of life. I am sure when McCain got swiftboated ,Bricker refused to vote republican. Oherwise he would be a joke for pretending he is so touchy now. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-bricker-that-not-every-obama-supporter-is-a-tool/462138/106 "2008-09-06T02:34:06Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > Evidently the answer is no. You got it! ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-bricker-that-not-every-obama-supporter-is-a-tool/462138/107 "2008-09-06T02:49:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The first thing that got major play here was the serious discussion of whther she faked her pregnancy to conceal her daughter’s pregnancy. Then when that was debunked by news of her daughter’s pregnancy, the attacks (seldom acknowledging their first error) shifted smoothly to her choices about where to deliver her baby, and how poor a mother she is because her teen daughter was pregnant. Those got more play in discussion here than Creationism, foreign policy experience, or time in office. This Obama supporter read the blog rumors with interest, but was withholding judgement and refrained from posting anything until all the facts were in. Now tell me, are you outraged about Palin’s claim > [@Sarah Palin](#): > > There is much to like and admire about our opponent. But listening to him speak, it’s easy to forget that this is a man who has authored two memoirs but not a single major law or even a reform, not even in the state senate. This is a **bald faced lie**. Obama has authored 152 bills and co-sponsored 427. The Ethics Reform Act of 2007 should be considered “major” by any reasonable standard. Do you reject and denounce this vicious mendacity? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-bricker-that-not-every-obama-supporter-is-a-tool/462138/108 "2008-09-06T03:17:58Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > This is a **bald faced lie**. Obama has authored 152 bills and co-sponsored 427. The Ethics Reform Act of 2007 should be considered “major” by any reasonable standard. Do you reject and denounce this vicious mendacity? That’s right, he was a co-sponsor. He didn’t “author” the bill in the sense that she obviously means it. So no, it’s not a bald-faced lie. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-bricker-that-not-every-obama-supporter-is-a-tool/462138/109 "2008-09-06T21:19:11Z")
Wha? Most bills are co-sponsored. In the way she obviously meant it, the statement was false: Coburn/Obama and Lugar/Obama are 2 examples of major legislation. > [@Scylla](#): > > Great Fucking Post! > > I especially like the way that it proves it’s own thesis by being completely ignored. FTR, I responded to it on page 1. > [@](#): > > My epiphany today was that I would like to switch up the ticket. > > McCain/Biden versus Obama/Palin. The latter is my dream ticket. Anything they both support is ok in my book. Scylla _is_ an entertaining poster but… Palin is wholly unqualified for high office at the moment. Just because I’m a liberal, doesn’t make it false (yuk, yuk). There are plenty of qualified Republicans: my lost thread listed 12 plausible female Republican candidates and ~20 more who were nonetheless more qualified than Palin. Less than half a term as governor of a small state really doesn’t cut it. It’s not like my standards are high. Heck, for me even _thinking about the Presidency_ for a couple of years is a qualification. Having a Masters degree in international affairs or public policy from a leading school would be a qualification. Being an active member of the policy community for many years is certainly a qualification. But as far as I can tell, Palin was plucked from nowhere. I was disappointed in McCain’s choice, in a way I wouldn’t have been if he had picked Lieberman, Ridge, Romney or the guy from Minnesota. Heck, picking Ralph Reed would have been scary, but not disappointing. ----- _“Anything they both support is ok in my book.”_ Actually, methinks McCain/Lieberman would be Scylla’s dream ticket. Or how about Obama/Lugar? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-bricker-that-not-every-obama-supporter-is-a-tool/462138/110 "2008-09-06T21:24:10Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Make it Obama/McCain and it might fly with me. But it took Palin for me to realize that there’s a woman in politics I fear/hate more than Hillary. How about McCain/Schlafly? 😛 😉 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-bricker-that-not-every-obama-supporter-is-a-tool/462138/111 "2008-09-06T21:29:10Z")
All kidding aside, my friends: The Vice President of the US isn’t a partner: the Vice President of the US is backup. When the President is in the 72-80 range, as McCain would be if re-elected, this decision matters more. Cheney’s job description is much more of an exception than a rule. So putting together 2 candidates with different POVs makes little sense: you want continuity after the untimely death of the Chief Executive, not turmoil. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-bricker-that-not-every-obama-supporter-is-a-tool/462138/112 "2008-09-06T21:51:54Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > All kidding aside, my friends: > > The Vice President of the US isn’t a partner: the Vice President of the US is backup. When the President is in the 72-80 range, as McCain would be if re-elected, this decision matters more. Cheney’s job description is much more of an exception than a rule. > > So putting together 2 candidates with different POVs makes little sense: you want continuity after the untimely death of the Chief Executive, not turmoil. Which makes me wonder… Maybe the right will now hatch a plan to off McCain and put their dream girl creationist nutjob in office. Eh, probably not. Even though it is the only way someone that far to the right could get in as pres. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-bricker-that-not-every-obama-supporter-is-a-tool/462138/113 "2008-09-06T22:04:43Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Cheney’s job description is much more of an exception than a rule. I’ve heard it argued that it’s not an exception, but part of a trend - Gore was said to be a bigger policy partner for Clinton that some past VPs had been, and based on rhetoric Biden, and maybe Palin, would also be part of that trend. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-bricker-that-not-every-obama-supporter-is-a-tool/462138/114 "2008-09-06T22:27:32Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’ve heard it argued that it’s not an exception, but part of a trend - Gore was said to be a bigger policy partner for Clinton that some past VPs had been, and based on rhetoric Biden, and maybe Palin, would also be part of that trend. I don’t accept that about Gore and the Clintons. Gore was very Green and yet the Clintons did little for the environment. I was always disappointed by how little they achieved in that area or even tried. At least Hillary made a failed attempt at UHC. What did the Clintons do for the environment? A lot less than Nixon or Carter and possibly less than Bush the 1st. So where did Gore have real input if he did not in his major area of concern? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-bricker-that-not-every-obama-supporter-is-a-tool/462138/115 "2008-09-06T22:30:31Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’ve heard it argued that it’s not an exception, but part of a trend - Gore was said to be a bigger policy partner for Clinton that some past VPs had been, and based on rhetoric Biden, and maybe Palin, would also be part of that trend. Palin? Palin would be given a few pet projects. She will raise funds. She might give a few speeches. I seriously doubt whether McCain will turn to her for advice. Mondale was a fairly active VP for Carter, probably more so than Bush was for Reagan. I don’t think it’s a trend so much as a product of the 2 actors’ personalities and skill sets. Though admittedly, I suspect that a man or women as experienced as Johnson or Nixon were would play a bigger role today. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-bricker-that-not-every-obama-supporter-is-a-tool/462138/116 "2008-09-06T22:32:33Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > So where did Gore have real input if he did not in his major area of concern? Ok, but Gore had lots of areas of concern as Senator: the internet was one and national security was another. The former basically took care of itself, but Gore did provide heeded advice in foreign policy. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-bricker-that-not-every-obama-supporter-is-a-tool/462138/117 "2008-09-06T22:38:41Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > My epiphany today was that I would like to switch up the ticket. > > McCain/Biden versus Obama/Palin. The latter is my dream ticket. Anything they both support is ok in my book. How about Kucinich/Coburn? Seriously, this shit reminds me of when, as a 14 year old Goldwater fan, I was rooting for Gene McCarthy in the Dem primaries. But I was 14 then. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-bricker-that-not-every-obama-supporter-is-a-tool/462138/118 "2008-09-06T22:56:20Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Palin? Palin would be given a few pet projects. She will raise funds. She might give a few speeches. I seriously doubt whether McCain will turn to her for advice. > > Mondale was a fairly active VP for Carter, probably more so than Bush was for Reagan. I don’t think it’s a trend so much as a product of the 2 actors’ personalities and skill sets. Though admittedly, I suspect that a man or women as experienced as Johnson or Nixon were would play a bigger role today. I recall Bush on constant near duty overseas. He was like a high powered Secretary of State at the time. I thought he had a lot to do with keeping Glasnost going and that was really his strong suit. > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Ok, but Gore had lots of areas of concern as Senator: the internet was one and national security was another. The former basically took care of itself, but Gore did provide heeded advice in foreign policy. I wasn’t knocking Gore, I was questioning if the Clintons actually took his advice. Can you cite they heeded his advice on foreign policy? I just don’t recall that. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-bricker-that-not-every-obama-supporter-is-a-tool/462138/119 "2008-09-06T22:56:46Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Which makes me wonder… Maybe the right will now hatch a plan to off McCain and put their dream girl creationist nutjob in office. > > Eh, probably not. Even though it is the only way someone that far to the right could get in as pres. “The Right” will do no such thing. A crazy might, but that’s a risk faced by all Presidents. McCain’s advanced age just increments the probability higher. Huh. Here’s [a most general actuarial table](http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/STATS/table4c6.html): one would have to adjust for McCain’s health status, including his fights against cancer. Be that as it may: ```auto P(death) P(survive) 2008 72 2009 73 0.0361 0.9639 2010 74 0.0395 0.9605 2011 75 0.0434 0.9566 2012 76 0.0478 0.9522 cumulative, 1st term: 16% 0.843311268 ``` If I have this correct, there’s roughly a 16% that McCain will die of natural causes while in office. Add a 5% chance of assassination by some wacko and we’re up to 21%. Yes, this is a very rough estimate. Over 8 years, I understand that the probability of a 72 year old male dying is about 33%, not including the 5% figure. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-bricker-that-not-every-obama-supporter-is-a-tool/462138/120 "2008-09-06T23:02:04Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > I recall Bush on constant near duty overseas. He was like a high powered Secretary of State at the time. I thought he had a lot to do with keeping Glasnost going and that was really his strong suit. I recall differently, but I’m no expert. (Another post-election GD!) > [@](#): > > I wasn’t knocking Gore, I was questioning if the Clintons actually took his advice. Can you cite they heeded his advice on foreign policy? I just don’t recall that. Yes: This is from Richard Clarke’s book, _Against All Enemies_. I copy and pasted from some loony, but the anecdote is well known. > [@](#): > > ``` > Snatches, or more properly "extraordinary renditions," were operations to apprehend terrorists abroad, usually without the knowledge of and almost always without public acknowledgment of the host government.... The first time I proposed a snatch, in 1993, the White House Counsel, Lloyd Cutler, demanded a meeting with the President to explain how it violated international law. Clinton had seemed to be siding with Cutler until Al Gore belatedly joined the meeting, having just flown overnight from South Africa. Clinton recapped the arguments on both sides for Gore: Lloyd says this. Dick says that. Gore laughed and said, "That's a no-brainer. Of course it's a violation of international law, that's why it's a covert action. The guy is a terrorist. Go grab his ass." (pp. 143-144) > > ``` [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-bricker-that-not-every-obama-supporter-is-a-tool/462138.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-bricker-that-not-every-obama-supporter-is-a-tool/462138.md?page=7)