# Convince me I should believe in your god **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 24, 2013, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033 "2013-08-24T04:47:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/21 "2013-08-24T15:43:24Z")
Believe in [this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QROEzCEd_Kg). Praise/kill “Bob”! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/22 "2013-08-24T15:45:36Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > Moreover, FAITH, is a rare gift . . . Looking around, it is a thing neither rare nor good. Faith is not a virtue, sir. Faith is a vice, and damned wicked one, too. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/23 "2013-08-24T15:45:42Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > “Which god?” > > How many do you have? [How many do you need?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deities) edited to add: Now, what evidence do you have for your god that doesn’t point to any of these other gods? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/24 "2013-08-24T15:46:28Z")
How many gods? [Some say…](http://atheism.wikia.com/wiki/How_many_gods%3F) ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/25 "2013-08-24T15:47:47Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > **razncain:** Insults against Christians are pretty much given a free pass on this message board. But my earlier self did not pour out thousands of posts calling Christians murderers and bigots and idiots, claiming that the Nazis were Christians, or all the other stuff that certain members of this message say routinely. I was, however, quite dismissive of religion in general, as expressed in posts like [this one](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=1368285&postcount=17). > > The juxtaposition of what I wrote then with my current signature line is somewhat amusing. Almost all of the Nazis \*\*were \*\*Christians, > **[Religion in Nazi Germany](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany)** > > Final solution > Pre-Machtergreifung > [@](#): > > In 1933, prior to the annexation of Austria into Germany, the Christian population of Germany was 67% Protestant and 33% Catholic, according to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum archives.[1] A German census in May 1939, completed more than six years into the Nazi era[2] and incorporating the annexation of mostly Catholic Austria into Germany, indicates that 54% of Germans considered themselves Protestant, (including non-denominational Christians) and 40% considered themselves Catholic, with only 3.5% claiming to be neo-pagan “believers in God,” and 1.5 % non-Christians, or “non-believers”. OTOH It has to be mentioned that a good chuck \*\*did \*\*oppose the Nazis, but as an Agnostic nowadays I do have to say that this attempt at removing a shameful chapter of the history of religion only leads to many religious leaders of today to just become false witnesses and convince people like you that we should ignore what took place in the recent past. Not gonna work, I found that in an even more recent past in places like in El Salvador, that the classic point is still a valid one: “Those who ignore history are condemn to repeat it”. And I saw how Christians that were told to be ignorant of the past ended up giving support to even more modern military thugs with blood in their hands. What I say in the end here is that as an agnostic with deistic tendencies I do think that organized religion will endure, but it should be the task of people like agnostics and Deists (Join the Unitarians! We do not damn you to hell just for looking at us funny! 😃 ) to make sure that organized religion remains benevolent and I do think that one big part of it is to make sure that they never forget how easy is for demagogues to lead religious people into doom. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/26 "2013-08-24T15:57:41Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > **razncain:** Insults against Christians are pretty much given a free pass on this message board. But my earlier self did not pour out thousands of posts calling Christians murderers and bigots and idiots, claiming that the Nazis were Christians, or all the other stuff that certain members of this message say routinely. I was, however, quite dismissive of religion in general, as expressed in posts like [this one](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=1368285&postcount=17). > > The juxtaposition of what I wrote then with my current signature line is somewhat amusing. Oh wow, yeah, you really were a real tuff guy back then, surprised you never got banned. With posts like that, hard to believe you didn’t at least get a warning or two. Damn the moderators! Seriously, is this it? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/27 "2013-08-24T16:05:23Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Looking around, it is a thing neither rare nor good. Faith is not a virtue, sir. Faith is a vice, and damned wicked one, too. The “rare gift” faith is kind of different from your garden variety belief in whatever. It is a sort of epiphany thing, where the divine truth is revealed in a cascade of overwhelming awesomeness that pours into your heart. Basically the same thing as a really good acid trip. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/28 "2013-08-24T16:12:47Z")
My god(dess) is Neko Case, and the proof is in her voice. If that doesn’t convince you, seek professional help. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/29 "2013-08-24T16:16:46Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Almost all of the Nazis \*\*were \*\*Christians Do we need to get into this again? The nazis did what they did because they were assholes, end of story. What they believed or did not believe is kind of irrelevant (apart from that master race business). Joe Stalin killed a lot of people, but if he had been religious, who is to say, he probably would have done the same thing, he had some kind of serious emotional/mental issue going on. That much is obvious, since the killings ended when the next gen took over. The evidence of history indicates that I will be good I will be a skank, or somewhere in between, but what altar I pray on or eschew will have but a trivial effect on how bad\<-\>good I am. The argument for believing in a given god cannot hinge on the fact that it will make me a better person, the overall evidence shows there can be no guarantees. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/30 "2013-08-24T16:18:44Z")
Since the title is “Convince me I should believe in _your_ god”(emphasis mine), it would help if people would identify their particular deity by sect before trying to convince the OP. You wouldn’t want the OP to believe in the wrong god, would you? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/31 "2013-08-24T16:20:40Z")
There is no god but God. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/32 "2013-08-24T16:22:37Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > There is no god but God. And which one would that be? Which church? Which sect? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/33 "2013-08-24T16:29:31Z")
> [@For You](#): > > Do we need to get into this again? The nazis did what they did because they were assholes, end of story. What they believed or did not believe is kind of irrelevant (apart from that master race business). Joe Stalin killed a lot of people, but if he had been religious, who is to say, he probably would have done the same thing, he had some kind of serious emotional/mental issue going on. That much is obvious, since the killings ended when the next gen took over. And good thing I do not deny that, the point stands, attempting to forget who were the willful supporters of the Nazis remains a problem, particularly when I still see the same groups calling for military coups when people in other nations attempt do to things differently. > [@For You](#): > > The evidence of history indicates that I will be good I will be a skank, or somewhere in between, but what altar I pray on or eschew will have but a trivial effect on how bad\<-\>good I am. The argument for believing in a given god cannot hinge on the fact that it will make me a better person, the overall evidence shows there can be no guarantees. Indeed, but the other point I made remains, we have to make efforts to make religion benevolent and to make sure it never forgets how it can be made into a tool of the demagogues. That there are \*\*other \*\*demagogues that do the same with non believers is a given, but one should never forget that many defenders of organized religion continue to say that such a hijack is not easy or that it could never happen. I can tell you from experience that we should tell them constantly that that is not the case. ---
**Author:** ![akennett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee59a6/32.png) [@akennett](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/akennett)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/34 "2013-08-24T17:05:52Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > There is no god but God. So, you’re a Muslim, then? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/35 "2013-08-24T17:10:58Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > Moreover, FAITH, is a rare gift - opens the mind and changes the heart - without which would make it IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to persuade you towards God. Faith closes the mind, it doesn’t open it. And it’s hardly rare, it’s the norm. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/36 "2013-08-24T17:10:59Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Indeed, but the other point I made remains, we have to make efforts to make religion benevolent and to make sure it never forgets how it can be made into a tool of the demagogues. Which sort of does not apply to the OP. I did not as to be convinced to be a Lutheran or Salafist or Hindu, just to be convinced to believe in a particular god. One can actually believe in a god and still be strongly opposed to the religions attached to its name, though that does seem to be pretty rare. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/37 "2013-08-24T17:15:19Z")
> [@For You](#): > > Which sort of does not apply to the OP. I did not as to be convinced to be a Lutheran or Salafist or Hindu, just to be convinced to believe in a particular god. One can actually believe in a god and still be strongly opposed to the religions attached to its name, though that does seem to be pretty rare. But the sect defines the god, does it not? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/38 "2013-08-24T17:30:55Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > But the sect defines the god, does it not? The sect defines the doctrine, the parameters required for worshipping the god. Lutherans and Salafists worship exactly the same god, its definition is not specific to their sect, only the how-to-worship is. Wakantanka, for instance, might even arguably be the same god: if the universe only has room for one superbeing, one could not reasonably say that the Lakota god is somehow different from the Muslim god as long as the general god concept is the same. So I guess I kind of erred with “_your_ god”. I am somewhat disinclined toward most pantheons, but then again, leave out the soap opera part and a pantheon makes about as much sense as monotheism, they are both positive models of the unknowable. But I still would like to see a viable reason to believe. Believers have difficulty understanding how it is possible that I can not believe, I am turning the tables here with why should I. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/39 "2013-08-24T17:32:07Z")
> [@For You](#): > > Which sort of does not apply to the OP. I did not as to be convinced to be a Lutheran or Salafist or Hindu, just to be convinced to believe in a particular god. One can actually believe in a god and still be strongly opposed to the religions attached to its name, though that does seem to be pretty rare. What \*\*Czarcasm \*\*said. Personally I do think that many would not like my definition of god, so I do not agree either on forcing others to follow it. It has to be noticed that the God of many founding fathers, that were Deist, was not really the god of the bible. [http://www.religioustolerance.org/jefferson.htm](http://www.religioustolerance.org/jefferson.htm) > [@](#): > > 1823: “The truth is, that the greatest enemies of the doctrine of Jesus are those, calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them to the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter… But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.” Discussion of the virgin birth in a letter to John Adams. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/40 "2013-08-24T17:38:07Z")
> [@For You](#): > > The sect defines the doctrine, the parameters required for worshipping the god. Lutherans and Salafists worship exactly the same god.. No, they don’t, unless Salafists are also Tinitarian. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033.md?page=3)