# Convince me I should believe in your god **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 24, 2013, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033 "2013-08-24T04:47:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/41 "2013-08-24T18:44:13Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > My god(dess) is Neko Case, and the proof is in her voice. Hard to argue with that. Know what’s even better? Image this: Neko Case of Beer ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/42 "2013-08-24T18:46:02Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > What \*\*Czarcasm \*\*said. Personally I do think that many would not like my definition of god, so I do not agree either on forcing others to follow it. It has to be noticed that the God of many founding fathers, that were Deist, was not really the god of the bible. > > [http://www.religioustolerance.org/jefferson.htm](http://www.religioustolerance.org/jefferson.htm) It should also be noticed that Jefferson’s prediction was wrong. He felt that once the United States granted its people religious freedom, orthodox Christianity would vanish and people would worship with a more pure form of deism, without a need for organized church bodies and clergy. Thomas Paine expressed a similar idea. But they were both wrong. Americans in their time, and in our time, were on average more likely to worship in church regularly, as compared to European countries where the church was tangled up with the government. > [@razncain](#): > > Oh wow, yeah, you really were a real tuff guy back then, surprised you never got banned. With posts like that, hard to believe you didn’t at least get a warning or two. Damn the moderators! Seriously, is this it? I’m sorry for the fact that back then I wasn’t nasty enough to meet your exacting standards of nastiness. Please accept my sincerest apologies. > [@For You](#): > > I have learned fairly recently that being right is of great value in the lab, but we do not spend much of our time there, we live with people. Most of us are wrong about most stuff most of the time, or at least we can benefit from looking through others’ eyes. (Ever play with a three-year-old and see through their eyes?) > > I am just failing to see that believing makes one less hateful. I spend almost all of my time not being hateful, it is too consuming. I even make a bit of an effort at not feeling superior to anyone else, because we really are all kind of screwed up in our own special ways. Well, you have my admiration and praise. Doubtlessly all of us would be better and happier if we made more effort to see how things look from the perspective of other people and to not think of ourselves as better than others. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/43 "2013-08-24T19:03:59Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > It should also be noticed that Jefferson’s prediction was wrong. He felt that once the United States granted its people religious freedom, orthodox Christianity would vanish and people would worship with a more pure form of deism, without a need for organized church bodies and clergy. Thomas Paine expressed a similar idea. But they were both wrong. Americans in their time, and in our time, were on average more likely to worship in church regularly, as compared to European countries where the church was tangled up with the government. You are acting like if the end of times are here already, they are not for this young nation, and as I have seen evidence of the increase in secularism in the USA your point here is still premature. > **[Atheism on the rise around the globe](https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Global-News/2012/0815/Atheism-on-the-rise-around-the-globe)** > > According to a new poll, religiosity worldwide is declining while more people say they are atheists. In the United States, a growing number consider themselves non-believers. > [@](#): > > Atheism is on the rise in the United States and elsewhere while religiosity is declining, according to a new worldwide poll. “The Global Index of Religiosity and Atheism,” conducted by WIN-Gallup International headquartered in Switzerland, found that the number of Americans who say they are “religious” dropped from 73 percent in 2005 – when the poll was last conducted – to 60 percent. Those who said they were “convinced” atheists rose from 1 to 5 percent. And 33 percent of the people polled said that they don’t consider themselves as a “religious person." ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/44 "2013-08-24T19:12:44Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > When I was young, I was raised by atheist parents and became an atheist myself. Mainly during my college years I spent vast amounts of time on this message board and other forums insulting religious believers and proclaiming my superiority to them. At the time, I severely limited my intellectual exploration, not reading any books and barely talking to anybody except those who I was sure would agree with my own prejudices. And at the time, I was extremely unhappy almost all of the time. > > After leaving college and entering graduate school, I began to suspect that there were vast intellectual landscapes which my education had left out. Hence I began reading books, studying topics, and talking to people who challenged my inherent beliefs that I had clung to throughout my life. As a result of doing so, I began to change my mind about things which I had previously simply assumed to be true. That produced, among a great many other things, my conversion to Christianity. And now, rather than being unhappy, I am mostly pretty happy. > > You’ve obviously decided to respond to such testimonies by saying things like “Love has the power to cloud one’s mind.” This true, no doubt. I also know from the experience of my own past that hatred and sarcasm and smug feelings of superiority have the power to cloud my mind, and overall I doubt any human being has ever been able to think pure reason without some clouding by emotion. We can, however, decide to some extent which clouds we wish, and I’d take love over the absence of love any day of the week. I love rationality and the real universe we live in. Which is probably why I hate religion and the delusions it inflicts on others. I’d remind you that in earlier threads you professed a reasoned transition into theism. When asked for those reasons, you gave a reading assignment. I’d say that you shouldn’t be too haughty about how your position is based on reason and learning, if you can’t relate the basics of that reasoning without pointing to a book. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/45 "2013-08-24T19:37:27Z")
**Lobohan** , just so you know, you’ve been on my ignore list for a while now. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/46 "2013-08-24T19:42:35Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > **Lobohan** , just so you know, you’ve been on my ignore list for a while now. I don’t think you’re supposed to say that in this forum. In any case, I understand why. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/47 "2013-08-24T19:53:25Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > **Lobohan** , just so you know, you’ve been on my ignore list for a while now. > [@Lobohan](#): > > I don’t think you’re supposed to say that in this forum. > > In any case, I understand why. You’re not. **ITR Champion** , don’t do this again. ---
**Author:** ![TARL\_FURY](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@TARL\_FURY](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TARL_FURY)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/48 "2013-08-24T20:23:25Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I love rationality and the real universe we live in. Which is probably why I hate religion and the delusions it inflicts on others. Well said, Lobohan. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/49 "2013-08-24T20:43:20Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I’m sorry for the fact that back then I wasn’t nasty enough to meet your exacting standards of nastiness. Please accept my sincerest apologies. More like, I take it those posts don’t really exist. And your second post you backed off even more. And now you’re reduced to this. Methinks you simply embellished your past to paint atheists in a bad light. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/50 "2013-08-24T20:54:20Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Convert to the worship of Dread Cthulhu, and you may yet hope to be [eaten first](http://foo.ca/wp/chick-tract-satire/who-will-be-eaten-first/)! My husband printed up a whole bunch of these a while back and occasionally will leave them in rest stop bathrooms and the like. I never ran into anyone else who knew about them before. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/51 "2013-08-24T21:50:24Z")
My religion forbids proselytizing on pain of death. And there are cookies. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/52 "2013-08-24T22:52:55Z")
I can’t be sure about “God” per se, but many forms of religion or spirituality have a head start over science on accessing valuable states of mind, and have other benefits. Science will eventually catch up but has been ignoring a lot of these things due to associating it with religion. You could probably get some of the same benefits without religion per se, by playing with kids, doing self development, pursuing a passion, reading philosophy, meditating, and doing charity work. Every system has benefits and downsides, including science. It’s up to you which one appeals to you the most, and how you will supplement it to make up for its failings. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/53 "2013-08-24T23:03:14Z")
Personally, I take part in a lot of different things, and value them all without taking any of them too seriously. I’m a scientist, but I also meditate, do yoga, attend a friary, participate in a Wiccan circle, attend Jewish holidays with friends, do bible study, take classical Indian dance, visit the Unitarian church, study integral philosophy, am most affected personally by Zen, Taoism, and Buddhism, and believe in the lessons of fictional stories. Everything has some element of truth, and something of value. I ignore or gently persuade against any elements of fear, hatred, or dogma. I’d say the most secular and rational religions/spirituality to pursue would be Taoism/Buddhism/Unitarianism/integral philosophy. If you have trouble with a literal interpretation of God, you can just access it as a metaphor for a certain state of mind. Phenomenologically, the experience of grace or enlightenment is the same whether you believe it is something divine, magical, or neurological. However you label it, and in whatever form, and by whatever means, it is worth pursuing. ---
**Author:** ![Conservian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@Conservian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Conservian)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/54 "2013-08-25T00:41:21Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Looking around, it is a thing neither rare nor good. Faith is not a virtue, sir. Faith is a vice, and damned wicked one, too. The obvious question: how can you properly identify,“Faith” and the fruit it bears if you have no personal experience with it in the first place? Formulating a concept about, “Faith” is worlds apart from possessing the genuine article. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/55 "2013-08-25T00:42:57Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > The obvious question: how can you properly identify,“Faith” and the fruit it bears if you have no personal experience with it in the first place? > Formulating a concept about, “Faith” is worlds apart from possessing the genuine article. That depends-faith in what? ---
**Author:** ![Conservian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@Conservian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Conservian)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/56 "2013-08-25T01:02:04Z")
[quote=“Czarcasm, post:23, topic:667033”] [How many do you need?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deities) edited to add: Now, what evidence do you have for your god that doesn’t point to any of these other gods?[/QUOTE My “need” has been met. It’s your need that prompted the question. Personal experience. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/57 "2013-08-25T01:05:07Z")
[quote=“Conservian, post:56, topic:667033”] [quote=“Czarcasm, post:23, topic:667033”] [How many do you need?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deities) edited to add: Now, what evidence do you have for your god that doesn’t point to any of these other gods? [/QUOTE My “need” has been met. It’s your need that prompted the question. Personal experience.[/QUOTE] You’re not posting to convince yourself-try again. ---
**Author:** ![Conservian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@Conservian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Conservian)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/58 "2013-08-25T01:24:41Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That depends-faith in what? Actually, it would be, faith in who, not what. I certainly can’t improve upon this classical definition of the kind of Faith I’m referring to: “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” ---
**Author:** ![Conservian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@Conservian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Conservian)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/59 "2013-08-25T01:32:14Z")
[quote=“Czarcasm, post:57, topic:667033”] > [@Conservian](#): > > You’re not posting to convince yourself-try again. I’m not posting to “convince” you either. My initial quote of “Luke-16” in this thread should have pointed that out to you. ---
**Author:** ![Conservian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@Conservian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Conservian)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/60 "2013-08-25T01:54:52Z")
[quote=“Thudlow\_Boink, post:17, topic:667033”] That depends on _what_ you believe. If you believe and take to heart Christian teaching about love, and forgiveness, and humility, and thankfulness, and removing the log from your own eye, and did I mention love? it ought to make you less hateful. And many of us find that believing in a loving, forgiving, generous God helps us to be more loving and forgiving and generous ourselves—or at least I hope so. No question about it, the closer one comes to understanding the magnitude of God’s Love for His elect, the greater one’s humility becomes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033.md?page=4)