# Convince me I should believe in your god **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 24, 2013, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033 "2013-08-24T04:47:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/61 "2013-08-25T02:00:36Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > My religion forbids proselytizing on pain of death. > > And there are cookies. 🙂 I have this principle that a religion that has a name is worthy of dismissal. You give it a name, it becomes open to all manner of abuse. It may seem-like/be a koan, but history bears it out. I find it incredibly difficult to accept a named faith. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/62 "2013-08-25T02:01:55Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > I’m not posting to “convince” you either. My initial quote of “Luke-16” in this thread should have pointed that out to you. Scripture is out of bounds in this thread ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/63 "2013-08-25T03:14:57Z")
[quote=“Conservian, post:59, topic:667033”] > [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’m not posting to “convince” you either. My initial quote of “Luke-16” in this thread should have pointed that out to you. Have you read any other holy books? I’m quite sure that other books have convinced other people to believe in other gods and/or goddesses. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/64 "2013-08-25T03:38:07Z")
> [@For You](#): > > I have this principle that a religion that has a name is worthy of dismissal. You give it a name, it becomes open to all manner of abuse. It may seem-like/be a koan, but history bears it out. I find it incredibly difficult to accept a named faith. But usually the named religions have the described gods. I find most spiritualism to be vague-ism, with the proponents saying, at best, that what they believe in can’t be put into any specific words or given any specific qualities or have any specific description. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/65 "2013-08-25T04:44:46Z")
> [@razncain](#): > > More like, I take it those posts don’t really exist. And your second post you backed off even more. And now you’re reduced to this. Methinks you simply embellished your past to paint atheists in a bad light. I’m not sure what “those posts” are that you’re referring to or what you’re trying to say. I know what I believed in the past. You apparently think that you know more about my own past than I do. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > You are acting like if the end of times are here already, they are not for this young nation, and as I have seen evidence of the increase in secularism in the USA your point here is still premature. > > [http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Globa...ound-the-globe](http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Globa...ound-the-globe) The poll you linked to appears to confirm what I said, that the USA is generally more religious than Europe. > [@jackdavinci](#): > > Personally, I take part in a lot of different things, and value them all without taking any of them too seriously. I’m a scientist, but I also meditate, do yoga, attend a friary, participate in a Wiccan circle, attend Jewish holidays with friends, do bible study, take classical Indian dance, visit the Unitarian church, study integral philosophy, am most affected personally by Zen, Taoism, and Buddhism, and believe in the lessons of fictional stories. Everything has some element of truth, and something of value. I ignore or gently persuade against any elements of fear, hatred, or dogma. I’d say the most secular and rational religions/spirituality to pursue would be Taoism/Buddhism/Unitarianism/integral philosophy. If you have trouble with a literal interpretation of God, you can just access it as a metaphor for a certain state of mind. Phenomenologically, the experience of grace or enlightenment is the same whether you believe it is something divine, magical, or neurological. However you label it, and in whatever form, and by whatever means, it is worth pursuing. You sound awesome. I wish that more people were like you. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/66 "2013-08-25T05:24:24Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > The poll you linked to appears to confirm what I said, that the USA is generally more religious than Europe. That is nice, not my point though, as we were talking about Jefferson and what he thought about the USA. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/67 "2013-08-25T08:24:02Z")
Actually, thinking about it some more, if I was going to believe in a god, and preach it to others, it would be the Hylaean Theoric World of the novel Anathem. The general idea being that our universe is one of many, all of which are basically informatic waveforms. In the center are purer more abstract waveforms - god, heaven, utopia, joy, love, etc. At the periphery are more noisy and concrete waveforms, specific, numerous, speciated, dense, realistic, personalities. And choice is a sort of lens that allows you to slowly travel through the waveforms, towards whatever sort of existence suits your current state of mind. The fact that people believe so many different things is just an artifact of your subconscious choice to exist in a world where it is easier to access disparate ideas. The multicultural being like a library of existential possibilities. So in this kind of scenario, god exists as a sort of ideal solution to a complex mathematical equation, and is a place, or feeling, as much as it is a personality, and is a destination as much as it is an origin. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/68 "2013-08-25T08:29:20Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > You sound awesome. I wish that more people were like you. Thank you! I am very rarely explicitly validated by others on the Internet, so your words feel very good. ---
**Author:** ![Conservian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@Conservian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Conservian)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/69 "2013-08-25T12:34:09Z")
> [@For You](#): > > Scripture is out of bounds in this thread Perhaps it would be betterto ignore certain posts that upset you rather than dictate of what or who is “out of bounds.” “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God” ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/70 "2013-08-25T12:51:38Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > No question about it, the closer one comes to understanding the magnitude of God’s Love for His elect, the greater one’s humility becomes. Perhaps I misunderstand what you mean by the word “elect” in this context. But if you’re one of your god’s “elect”, aren’t you apt to feel just a little smug about the fact that you’re one of the chosen group and those others aren’t? It’s been my experience that many Christians who take the time to quote bible and verse (usually without being asked) are acting from a place other than humility. I’ll speculate no futher as to what that other place may be. ---
**Author:** ![Conservian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@Conservian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Conservian)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/71 "2013-08-25T12:54:36Z")
[quote=“Czarcasm, post:63, topic:667033”] [quote=“Conservian, post:59, topic:667033”] Have you read any other holy books? I’m quite sure that other books have convinced other people to believe in other gods and/or goddesses.[/QUOTE I have read other ‘holy books.’ “Holy books” can and do “convince people,” but only Scripture redeems them. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/72 "2013-08-25T12:55:54Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > Perhaps it would be betterto ignore certain posts that upset you rather than dictate of what or who is “out of bounds.” Perhaps you could show some of that famous Christian humility and respects the requested rules of the OP. Or do the bounds or your humility apply only to those that think as you do? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/73 "2013-08-25T12:59:39Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > “Holy books” can and do “convince people,” but only Scripture redeems them. Where do you find “scripture”? ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/74 "2013-08-25T13:29:07Z")
> [@For You](#): > > I have this principle that a religion that has a name is worthy of dismissal. You give it a name, it becomes open to all manner of abuse. It may seem-like/be a koan, but history bears it out. I find it incredibly difficult to accept a named faith. As can be said for any god. The fun begins once their god starts getting certain attributes. ---
**Author:** ![Conservian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@Conservian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Conservian)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/75 "2013-08-25T13:41:21Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Perhaps I misunderstand what you mean by the word “elect” in this context. But if you’re one of your god’s “elect”, aren’t you apt to feel just a little smug about the fact that you’re one of the chosen group and those others aren’t? > It’s been my experience that many Christians who take the time to quote bible and verse (usually without being asked) are acting from a place other than humility. I’ll speculate no futher as to what that other place may be. " Actually, just the opposite is true. Election’ has nothing to do with person’s own merit and a believer understands this thoroughly. You’re also familiar with the term - pride goes before a fall. If they’re quoting “bible” then they’re proclaiming something other than themselves and know that “faith cometh by hearing.” Wanting to share something good with others is not a bad thing. “Speculate” is a good choice of words. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/76 "2013-08-25T13:49:09Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I’m not sure what “those posts” are that you’re referring to or what you’re trying to say. I know what I believed in the past. You apparently think that you know more about my own past than I do. If you’ll just admit you hyperbolized/embellished/overstated your case with your first post (#13) in this thread, I look forward more to how you’re going to convince the OP or others why they should believe in your god. Basically, I’m calling your bluff on this with emphasis on the bolding which is mine: > [@](#): > > When I was young, I was raised by atheist parents and became an atheist myself. Mainly during my college years I spent **vast amounts of time** on **this message board** and other forums **insulting religious believers** and **proclaiming my superiority** to them. Of course, you said a lot more than that which I’ll get to shortly, but that’s basically all I asked for is that if you recalled what those threads might be in. In your second post, you even said \* insults against Christians are pretty much given a free pass on this message board\*, so that should have made it even easier for you to do. But you didn’t do that, instead from the second sentence on you seem to be equivocating saying you really didn’t insult religious believers by calling them names, but that you were dismissive of religion in general. You gave me an example of how you used to write that dates back to 2001: > [@](#): > > I’ve always viewed religion as a way of making people less afraid of death by telling them that they’ll go to heaven or get re-incarnated or something else, but that they at least won’t really die. Thus, if science was able to eliminate the natural aging process, thus making a human lifespan infinite, there wouldn’t be any need for religion. > > * * * > > -ITR Champion > > “I am extremely proud of my religion.” - G. K. Chesterton Not that I don’t agree with it, but that there is something wrong here if that was the best example you could come up of how you were insulting Christians, or is it going to be, being dismissive of them? Furthermore Chesterton was a Christian apologetic, you didn’t find as an atheist any atheist worthy to be quoting from? I did a quick search engine of your posts, but of only of the threads you had started. I got three pages, and basically only a couple even had to do with religion. Wasn’t going to look at all posts from you, and if this is what you would think is your better example of the worst of it, there is no point in going further with it. As to, **convince me I should believe in your god** : To make this part short, you could help substantiate your first post some more that might make for some interesting reading of how as an unhappy atheist who wasn’t book smart at the time, started reading lots of books, and talking to others that challenged your atheist beliefs, and eventually converted you over to being mostly a happy Christian now. What was specifically in this “intellectual landscape” that convinced you it was true, and that atheism was wrong? And of all the gods there were to pick from, what particularly stood out about the bible that had you realize this was the Real McCoy? And seriously, was it atheism that was really making you unhappy, or other things going on in your life? And if this is too personal, no problem, this doesn’t have to be addressed. For me, I can honestly say, atheism hasn’t affected me the way you said it did you. Far from being unhappy, it’s very difficult for me to even to relate to depressed people and has probably help me keep my sanity. I can have some days, where I’m bored to tears, and occasionally get down, but those days are few and far between. And I realize everyone is different, I’m not crowing any, there are obviously some who have traveled a different road, and came from unhappy households that may have helped get them off to a bad start. Bad jobs, bad spouses, or having trouble with kids, all of these things can make for a bad experience. Or they may suffer from clinical depression regardless of how good of a job their parents did with them or what their present situation is. Maybe their health has taken a turn for the worst. If so, I can understand. Fortunately, I’ve been lucky in life thus far, and will keep enjoying my health while I have it. None of us gets out of this world alive, and I know some day when this body and mind wears out and is no longer any good to me or anybody else, death will become my friend. I know religious people can’t accept this, their egos won’t allow it. Much like the quote you used in 2001, would you say, it’s not so much an intellectual journey but the emotional appeal that attracted you to Christianity with its promises of an everlasting happy life along with loved ones that will join you there? I know the spiel Christians use to convert by using personal testimonials, amusing anecdotes, making you feel like this miserable unhappy person, but hey, if only you will believe what they are telling you, not only will you get eternal life and be happy, we will be your friends too. I couldn’t offer you any promises like that as an atheist, but what helps me is realizing my thoughts are not going to change the outcome in the end. I can’t think or wish for a belief that magically alters the course. I know religious people say they can by believing in such and such and/or possibly doing such and such, but if I’m going to use all of my mental faculties, such thoughts are going to require a hell of a lot more than faith and pulling on my heart strings. Worst case scenario, I’m wrong and there is a God. He’ll forgive me, because that’s His job. But it won’t be me having any explaining to do, it will be Him! Actually, I take that back, one of the worst case scenarios, is that the biblical God is the Real Deal, and in that case, I think we are all fucked, believer and unbeliever alike, but such is my confidence in knowing that isn’t the case, I’m not the least bit deterred by threats of hell, or what this being can supposedly do to me, and not the least be swayed by having a mansion in heaven or seeing streets paved by gold. Could care less about playing the harp, or whatever kind of music believers they think they will have. When I’ve asked Christians about more intimate details of what will go on in heaven in the bedroom, they tell me in Matthew (I think it was) that they will not have their genitals there. So forget ever making love to your wife again. And after a fine meal, how you relieve your bladder or any bowel movements ought to get interesting. I suppose that can be fixed as well, by bodies not even needing food. But gosh, here we go again, I enjoy food tremendously too. Strange how the bible says almost nothing of this heaven, and I’ve basically said all that there is to say of it from biblical descriptions I remember reading about and having people tell me what it is going to be like. They have actually told me much more, but they certainly weren’t reciting biblical verses. I personally would have wanted to know a hell of a lot more about this place if I was going to be spending eternity there. From what I understand of the biblical version of heaven, compared to what an atheist thinks is going to happen, which is basically and endless eternity of sleep, much like it was before I was born, it sounds much better to me. Not only does it sound much better, it probably is true what happens. But I could be wrong. Convince me or anyone why we should believe in your god. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/77 "2013-08-25T13:51:14Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > " > > Actually, just the opposite is true. Election’ has nothing to do with person’s own merit and a believer understands this thoroughly. You’re also familiar with the term - pride goes before a fall. > If they’re quoting “bible” then they’re proclaiming something other than themselves and know that “faith cometh by hearing.” > Wanting to share something good with others is not a bad thing. > > “Speculate” is a good choice of words. if they are quoting ‘bible’ - then the bible is being used as a crutch and circular ‘reasoning’. In order to use the Bible as ‘proof’ or ‘evidence’ for your God - you must first prove that either exists outside of the Bible - IOW - First prove ‘God’ - then prove that the ‘Bible’ is ‘Gods Word’ - and you can’t use the Bible to prove either of those. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/78 "2013-08-25T13:55:36Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > If they’re quoting “bible” then they’re proclaiming something other than themselves and know that “faith cometh by hearing.” “Knowledge cometh by evidence”. Got any? > [@Conservian](#): > > Wanting to share something good with others is not a bad thing. Were you asked to share biblical quotes in this OP? No. In fact you were explicitly asked not to. You chose to ignore it to impose your own sense of “good”. To my mind it shows a lack of good intent. It shows a willfull imposition of your sense of what’s “good”. Is that your definition of humility and good intent? Is that what you think is meant by, “Do unto others…”? ---
**Author:** ![Conservian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@Conservian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Conservian)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/79 "2013-08-25T14:21:10Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Perhaps you could show some of that famous Christian humility and respects the requested rules of the OP. Or do the bounds or your humility apply only to those that think as you do? If you read his initial post, he stated something pertaining to 'bible quotes being ignored by him, “not out of bounds” as you suggest. His follow-up post to me seemed to be moving the goal post from ‘ignore’ to ‘out of bounds.’ Why try to supress what others i.e. Christians express here due to personal prejudices? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/80 "2013-08-25T14:37:57Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > If you read his initial post, he stated something pertaining to 'bible quotes being ignored by him, “not out of bounds” as you suggest. His follow-up post to me seemed to be moving the goal post from ‘ignore’ to ‘out of bounds.’ > > Why try to supress what others i.e. Christians express here due to personal prejudices? So when the OP says he will ignore (i.e. not respond to) witnessing through bible quotations, you take it as an invitation to do so, without challenge? Interesting. Just so we’re clear, my “personal prejudices” aside, I can’t keep you from posting any damn thing you like. Your challenge however, is to convince the OP that your god exists and that he should believe in him, without you resorting to quotes from the bible (which we’ve all seen and read countless times here and elsewhere). I personally don’t think what the OP asks is possible; With or without bible quotes. However, you are invited to try. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033.md?page=5)