# Convince me I should believe in your god **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 24, 2013, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033 "2013-08-24T04:47:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/81 "2013-08-25T14:50:13Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > Perhaps it would be betterto ignore certain posts that upset you rather than dictate of what or who is “out of bounds.” > > “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God” Do you ignore the purpose of this thread and the polite request from the OP because he isn’t a Christian, or would you be this rude to any poster, Christian or not? ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/82 "2013-08-25T18:28:43Z")
**razncain** , I don’t at present have the ability to pursue this particular thread at length. Apparently my memories were mistaken, in that I didn’t, during my early days, spend all that much time debating religion on this message board. Please accept my apologies. ---
**Author:** ![Conservian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@Conservian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Conservian)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/83 "2013-08-25T19:52:46Z")
> [@simster](#): > > if they are quoting ‘bible’ - then the bible is being used as a crutch and circular ‘reasoning’. More than a “crutch.” It is the absolute foundation for what they believe. “Circular reasoning???” > [@](#): > > In order to use the Bible as ‘proof’ or ‘evidence’ for your God - you must first prove that either exists outside of the Bible - IOW - First prove ‘God’ - then prove that the ‘Bible’ is ‘Gods Word’ - and you can’t use the Bible to prove either of those. The “evidence” would never be sufficient to “prove” anything to the skeptical heart. That was the thrust of my initial post. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/84 "2013-08-25T19:57:20Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > The “evidence” would never be sufficient to “prove” anything to the skeptical heart. That was the thrust of my initial post. Yeah, I hear this a lot. “I’ve got evidence, but I’m not going to show _you_ because you wouldn’t accept it anyway” is nothing but an accusation without evidence. Why don’t you give with the evidence, and if it is dismissed, _then_ you can make with the “closed-minded” accusations, o.k.? ---
**Author:** ![Conservian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@Conservian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Conservian)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/85 "2013-08-25T20:10:33Z")
[quote=“QuickSilver, post:80, topic:667033”] So when the OP says he will ignore (i.e. not respond to) witnessing through bible quotations, you take it as an invitation to do so, without challenge? Interesting. Why exaggerate? Just paste his quote, rather than attempt to speak for him with confused terms - “witnessing”?!? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/86 "2013-08-25T20:18:48Z")
[quote=“Conservian, post:85, topic:667033”] > [@QuickSilver](#): > > So when the OP says he will ignore (i.e. not respond to) witnessing through bible quotations, you take it as an invitation to do so, without challenge? Interesting. > > Why exaggerate? Just paste his quote, rather than attempt to speak for him with confused terms - “witnessing”?!? Are you unsure as to how quote tags work? ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/87 "2013-08-25T20:49:08Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > **razncain** , I don’t at present have the ability to pursue this particular thread at length. Apparently my memories were mistaken, in that I didn’t, during my early days, spend all that much time debating religion on this message board. Please accept my apologies. Sure, that is cool, and it’s not like those were the only options of the three I gave. This is over ten years ago I was asking you to go back, so you may have been off on your time line. Hell, I’m 55 now, and it’s a wonder I don’t have to write my name, address, and other pertinent info on the mirror just to get my day off. And actually, kind of glad you didn’t have time to pursue it, because I don’t have that much spare time either, and have got some pool games to catch up on. Later…. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/88 "2013-08-25T21:02:06Z")
The _evidence_ seems to indicate that evidence/proof is not a pre-requisite for belief/faith. As I understand it, the Hellenes a couple of millennia ago came up with a theory of an entity called an “atom”. The idea behind the theory was that you could cut a thing into smaller and smaller pieces and it would still be a thing of its type until you reached the smallest piece, the “atom”. No one had ever seen an atom, or a tunneling electron microscope, but the theory was a logical extrapolation based on what was possible, so it held sway, mostly, until Oppy’s crew showed what happens when you cut into them. God, similarly, is a theoretical model. So far, the evidence to support its existence, even in the most stripped-down, fundamental sense, is sketchy at best. Perhaps the most important part of the picture, the “soul” thing cannot reliably be observed. So obviously proof or evidence are kind of beyond the argument, the logical foundation for god needs to be established first. That is where the “convince me” dialog must begin: what is the logical basis for god? That is my reason for ignoring scripture: it is empty weenie-waving poetry that does nothing to support the foundation for god in the first place. Sorry if that sets the bar too high. I guess we all have different standards. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/89 "2013-08-25T23:00:28Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > The “evidence” would never be sufficient to “prove” anything to the skeptical heart. That was the thrust of my initial post. Not much of a God if the evidence for it is only good enough for those that already believe. I had never heard of Firefox - but more and more websites claimed that thier site was better with this thing called firefox - and I was able to find it, and lo it was true. Secondly - For all your use of scripture - you seem to forget that ‘Christ came for the lost’ (Luke 19) - not the “already knowing” - he’s even reported to have said that if the disciples were quiet - even the ‘stones would sing out’ - well - I’ve not heard any stones singing, and if he truly was here for the ‘lost’ - then the evidence should be right there for the taking - skeptic and non-skeptic alike. (excuse the scripture reference, but fire/fire and all that). ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/90 "2013-08-26T00:27:42Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > The “evidence” would never be sufficient to “prove” anything to the skeptical heart. That was the thrust of my initial post. You are mistaken. I could give many examples of what would convince me, and have done so elsewhere. But personal testimonials, anecdotes, scripture are not the kind of evidence is going to persuade anybody around here. Certain scripture actually would with me if it had some meat on the bone. If you accept falsification and other means to go about trying to decide if something is true or not, that would be a good start. ---
**Author:** ![Conservian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@Conservian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Conservian)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/91 "2013-08-26T00:56:00Z")
[quote=“simster, post:89, topic:667033”] Not much of a God if the evidence for it is only good enough for those that already believe. I had never heard of Firefox - but more and more websites claimed that thier site was better with this thing called firefox - and I was able to find it, and lo it was true. Secondly - For all your use of scripture - you seem to forget that ‘Christ came for the lost’ (Luke 19) - not the “already knowing” - he’s even reported to have said that if the disciples were quiet - even the ‘stones would sing out’ - well - I’ve not heard any stones singing, and if he truly was here for the ‘lost’ - then the evidence should be right there for the taking - skeptic and non-skeptic alike. (excuse the scripture reference, but fire/fire and all that).[/QUOTE As you read the message Jesus preached to ALL, you find there were some who criticized it some who cursed it and some who believed it. You also find Jesus addressing each of these and responding to them in kind. It’s all there. All you need to do is to check it out for yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/92 "2013-08-26T01:01:59Z")
[quote=“Conservian, post:91, topic:667033”] [quote=“simster, post:89, topic:667033”] Not much of a God if the evidence for it is only good enough for those that already believe. I had never heard of Firefox - but more and more websites claimed that thier site was better with this thing called firefox - and I was able to find it, and lo it was true. Secondly - For all your use of scripture - you seem to forget that ‘Christ came for the lost’ (Luke 19) - not the “already knowing” - he’s even reported to have said that if the disciples were quiet - even the ‘stones would sing out’ - well - I’ve not heard any stones singing, and if he truly was here for the ‘lost’ - then the evidence should be right there for the taking - skeptic and non-skeptic alike. (excuse the scripture reference, but fire/fire and all that). [/QUOTE As you read the message Jesus preached to ALL, you find there were some who criticized it some who cursed it and some who believed it. You also find Jesus addressing each of these and responding to them in kind. It’s all there. All you need to do is to check it out for yourself.[/QUOTE] 1. When Jesus posts here, I’ll listen to what he has to say. Got anything to say yourself about your particular religion? 2. Would you happen to messing up the quotes on purpose? ---
**Author:** ![Conservian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@Conservian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Conservian)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/93 "2013-08-26T01:05:26Z")
> [@razncain](#): > > You are mistaken. I could give many examples of what would convince me, and have done so elsewhere. But personal testimonials, anecdotes, scripture are not the kind of evidence is going to persuade anybody around here. Certain scripture actually would with me if it had some meat on the bone. > > If you accept falsification and other means to go about trying to decide if something is true or not, that would be a good start. You begin by saying I am mistaken, yet express your own skepticism throughout your post:confused: ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/94 "2013-08-26T01:13:31Z")
If you want to quote scripture, please address Luke 19:29-35 \ ***29** And it came to pass, when He drew near to Bethphage[c] and Bethany, at the mountain called Olivet, that He sent two of His disciples, **30** saying, “[COLOR=“Red”]Go into the village opposite you, where as you enter you will find a colt tied, on which no one has ever sat. Loose it and bring it here. **31** And if anyone asks you, ‘Why are you loosing it?’ thus you shall say to him, ‘Because the Lord has need of it.’” **32** So those who were sent went their way and found it just as He had said to them. **33** But as they were loosing the colt, the owners of it said to them, “Why are you loosing the colt?” **34** And they said, “The Lord has need of him.” **35** Then they brought him to Jesus. And they threw their own clothes on the colt, and they set Jesus on him.[/COLOR]\* Which says that Jesus was a horse thief. His crucifiction was not unjustified, they strung up horse thieves in the old west all the time. How is just taking stuff because you need it at all honorable? ---
**Author:** ![Conservian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@Conservian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Conservian)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/95 "2013-08-26T01:16:12Z")
[quote=“Czarcasm, post:92, topic:667033”] > [@Conservian](#): > > 1. When Jesus posts here, I’ll listen to what he has to say. Got anything to say yourself about your particular religion? > 2. Would you happen to messing up the quotes on purpose? 1. How will you be able to distinguish the real from the impostor? Don’t believe in “religions,” as they are the construct of man. 2. Have no clue as to what you’re referring to!?!? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/96 "2013-08-26T01:29:00Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > 1. How will you be able to distinguish the real from the impostor? Why don’t you go ahead and describe him so I’ll know who to look for? > [@Conservian](#): > > Don’t believe in “religions,” as they are the construct of man. Are you not a Christian? Do you not favor some verses of the Bible over others? Do you not think there is a path to salvation that you(if not others) should follow? That’s religion. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/97 "2013-08-26T01:38:02Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > As you read the message Jesus preached to ALL, you find there were some who criticized it some who cursed it and some who believed it. You also find Jesus addressing each of these and responding to them in kind. It’s all there. All you need to do is to check it out for yourself. Not sure what you’re driving at there - but if he came to preach to all (which includes the skeptics) and he responded to them ‘in kind’ (which I assume means he tailored his message to them as needed) - then seems he would have been able to provide ample evidence for the skeptics… oh, wait - when asked - he DID - to Thomas - direct PHYSICAL evidence. So - seems he can, if he wants, provide any evidence as required. Seems he just doesnt want to. Or he doesn’t actually exist - and the words in the ‘bible’ are just those needed to sell a religion. So - got anything external to the ‘bible’? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/98 "2013-08-26T02:21:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Why don’t you go ahead and describe him so I’ll know who to look for?Are you not a Christian? Do you not favor some verses of the Bible over others? Do you not think there is a path to salvation that you(if not others) should follow? That’s religion. I have encountered this before: “\*I don’t believe in \*religion, _I believe in truth. Those other ways are just religions, our way is the truth_.” ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/99 "2013-08-26T10:09:00Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > You begin by saying I am mistaken, yet express your own skepticism throughout your post:confused: The world is full of skeptics but not in numbers anywhere near those of the true believers. Trouble is, they believe so many contradictory things and each one is convinced that they have it right. Surely they can’t all be right. Based on what specific evidence do you believe that your version of the truth is the correct one? ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/100 "2013-08-26T10:13:40Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > The “evidence” would never be sufficient to “prove” anything to the skeptical heart. That was the thrust of my initial post. > [@razncain](#): > > You are mistaken. I could give many examples of what would convince me, and have done so elsewhere. But personal testimonials, anecdotes, scripture are not the kind of evidence is going to persuade anybody around here. Certain scripture actually would with me if it had some meat on the bone. > > If you accept falsification and other means to go about trying to decide if something is true or not, that would be a good start. > [@Conservian](#): > > You begin by saying I am mistaken, yet express your own skepticism throughout your post:confused: No need to play obtuse, but if you’re not pretending, I’ll give an example of scripture, that would do it for me. Find me a true believer that takes [Mark 16:16-18](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2016:16-18&version=NRSV) literally and has such a gift today. Just one person of faith, that is all. Let me pick the snakes and the poisons. If you agree to do this yourself, I have paper work you’ll need to sign protecting me from being sued, but nothing for a man of faith of your caliber that needs to be concerned about. I’m sure once it’s over with, you’ll come out unscathed, and I’ll be standing there looking awfully damn foolish. Yeah, the joke would be on me. Word of this will spread, and you will find so many new converts after you succeeded, all the present churches couldn’t hold all of the new converts. New churches would have to be built, so many in fact, it would help create a new building boom that lifted us out of the recession. It’s a win win, and you will get a chance to humiliate skeptics everywhere. God, Jesus will rejoice from up high. What’s the worst that could happen? I can’t think of any negatives, can you? How’s that for thrust? And I didn’t even have to kick in the afterburners. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033.md?page=6)