# Convince me I should believe in your god **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 24, 2013, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033 "2013-08-24T04:47:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2013, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/121 "2013-08-31T05:39:37Z")
Exactly. What happens when two different people feel, in their heart, two very different things? One feels the living, loving presence of Freya, and the other feels the might and majesty of Zeus. And it’s felt. It comes from the inward spirit. Or heart. Or bowels. I was reading a book on the early Christian church. For a brief time, they accepted personal prophecy as a spiritual gift of faith. People would stand in church and deliver themselves of prophecy, and this was recognized as miraculous and true. Then somebody got smart, and realized there weren’t any dogmatic controls on what such an individual might say. They might say, “God is great.” They might say, “Paul is a liar, listen to Peter instead.” They might say, “The Son bears the Holy Ghost.” They might say, “War on Antioch!” The church quietly, but firmly, put a nix on individual prophecy as a form of revelation. ---
**Author:** ![Conservian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@Conservian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Conservian)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2013, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/122 "2013-08-31T11:58:33Z")
[quote=“Czarcasm, post:116, topic:667033”] So I would already have to be a believer to judge their worthiness, correct? That makes your advice to **razncain** absolutely useless. Are you getting the gist of this “circular reasoning” bit yet?[/QUOTE A couple of points/comments: Judgments are never worthless, but always have a consequence. Faith cometh by hearing - who can say exactly who or where someone will be moved in their heart? The term “circular reasoning” is also, IMO, just that - a “bit.” ---
**Author:** ![Conservian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@Conservian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Conservian)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2013, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/123 "2013-08-31T12:11:13Z")
> [@For You](#): > > As I understand/remember it, “spiritual discernment” is a non-intellectual exercise. You have to _feel it in your heart_. You _just know_ that it is true. I mean, how else can you expect to _discern_ the difference between a miracle and a coincidence (other than the fact that they are only miracles if your faith is involved, other faiths just have coincidences). “Spiritual discernment” indentifies with the heart of the spirit, not the feelings. These are two separate issues. If one believes God is sovereign, does one truly believe there is such a thing as “coincidences?” And wouldn’t the opposite applies for the agnostics and atheists? ---
**Author:** ![Conservian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@Conservian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Conservian)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2013, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/124 "2013-08-31T12:14:04Z")
> [@razncain](#): > > Tis true, I have no desire to become a believer or “true believer” if that makes a difference, in “any faith system” whatsoever. I cannot find a single compelling reason to do so, and just a hell of a lot good reasons not to. Duly noted, razncain ---
**Author:** ![Conservian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@Conservian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Conservian)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2013, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/125 "2013-08-31T12:29:13Z")
> [@razncain](#): > > Tis true, I have no desire to become a believer or “true believer” if that makes a difference, in “any faith system” whatsoever. I cannot find a single compelling reason to do so, and just a hell of a lot good reasons not to. Appreciate your straightforwardness. I can certainly understand the criticism many religious institutions and organizations receive (and rightly so) as some seem more concerned with ‘donations’ than any other aspect of their ‘ministry.’ ---
**Author:** ![Conservian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@Conservian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Conservian)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2013, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/126 "2013-08-31T12:46:11Z")
[quote=“Czarcasm, post:117, topic:667033”] Since we obviously can’t do the “Spiritual Discernment” part just yet, why don’t you just give us the top four or five sites to check out?[/QUOTE I don’t frequent any sites to share with you. Besides, take a first step of faith and seek these out for yourself. I’m confident if you’re sincere, you’ll be rewarded accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2013, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/127 "2013-08-31T12:51:47Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > > [@QuickSilver](#): > > > > Surely they can’t all be right. > > A remnant of those would likely “be right.” Which ones are the remnant? Are you one of the “right” ones? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2013, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/128 "2013-08-31T13:04:19Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > I don’t frequent any sites to share with you. Besides, take a first step of faith and seek these out for yourself. I’m confident if you’re sincere, you’ll be rewarded accordingly. What you appear to be saying, over and over, is that you must first have faith to find belief. So you must first want X to be true and then look for states of X that feel like they are true and discard the states of X that aren’t. I understand that this is the essence of having faith and a belief in god. That is, look for internal consistancies that support desired outcomes in a closed system - one’s own faith. But can you admit that this is just a house of cards? ---
**Author:** ![bhamfree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3bc359/32.png) [@bhamfree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bhamfree)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2013, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/129 "2013-08-31T13:08:45Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I began reading books, studying topics, and talking to people who challenged my inherent beliefs that I had clung to throughout my life. As a result of doing so, I began to change my mind about things which I had previously simply assumed to be true. That produced, among a great many other things, my conversion to Christianity. Can you be more specific? What new ideas where you exposed to that you found so convincing? I have found most of the arguments for Christianity to be pretty weak, usually special pleading. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2013, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/130 "2013-08-31T14:48:37Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > Appreciate your straightforwardness. > I can certainly understand the criticism many religious institutions and organizations receive (and rightly so) as some seem more concerned with ‘donations’ than any other aspect of their ‘ministry.’ Even regardless of that, my first main concern, even as a child, was, if it was true or not. At the time I wanted to believe, because I didn’t know any better. I didn’t know what content the bible really had in it at the time. I hadn’t a clue of what I just read, but the way that other believers told it, it sounded good. Eternal life certainly appealed to me emotionally. All I had to do is just believe and it would come true and would make it all so. Just like most other religions, also promising eternal life, but had you believing in other things. I pondered if I had the right religion knowing the major differences that they all had couldn’t make them all true, assuming even one was. Intellectually, even as a child, I found it bankrupt. As an adult, even more so. There are many things, had they been true, would have changed my mind, but as I started to understand the stories, it lost even further respect for me. And the more I read of how the bible was put together, and the more I understood how nature works, I realized there is hardly a truth to be told in the bible, and it’s basically reduced to just amusing stories, that may or may not have some moral good or lesson be learned from it. Its teachings leave a lot to be desired. Jesus, if he existed, wasn’t all that wise or good, although modern day Christians are clinging on to this aspect, even if they may not put too much credence in the supernatural content. Listening to personal testimonials may be quite good in selling a lot of wares, but they belong pretty much at the bottom of the heap when it comes to evidence. There is a reason scientific papers don’t rely on them, but religion and info-commercials do. They do very well in selling all sorts of worthless junk. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2013, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/131 "2013-08-31T15:16:37Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > > [@Czarcasm](#): > > > > Since we obviously can’t do the “Spiritual Discernment” part just yet, why don’t you just give us the top four or five sites to check out? > > I don’t frequent any sites to share with you. Besides, take a first step of faith and seek these out for yourself. I’m confident if you’re sincere, you’ll be rewarded accordingly. Have you tried this with any other religion besides the one you now believe in? Are you claiming that this approach won’t work with any other religion but your? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2013, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/132 "2013-08-31T15:45:53Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > “Spiritual discernment” indentifies with the heart of the spirit, not the feelings. These are two separate issues. “Heart of the spirit”? Before that can be addressed we need to understand “spirit” in objective terms. _Cogito ergo sum_ (apparently), but beyond that, what? IIUC, you believe that there is an entity that can/will exit your body intact, but how can you even substantively support this belief? Is there viable logic that leads to this spirit/soul business, or is it just a feeling (or wishful thinking)? > [@](#): > > If one believes God is sovereign, does one truly believe there is such a thing as “coincidences?” And wouldn’t the opposite applies for the agnostics and atheists? So everything that ever happened, is happening, will happen, is a deliberate, calculated action on the part of god? I am not sure how that significantly different from pure randomness. I remember hearing this country song that goes “god answers every prayer, sometimes the answer is ‘no’”, do your lobbying efforts actually mean anything? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2013, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/133 "2013-08-31T16:35:33Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > Well, here’s your conundrum ; the “external” only comes to those who are receptive to the 'internal" so as to strengthen the seed of Faith. > So, I wouldn’t wait around for someone to come tap you on the shoulder and perform signs and wonders exclusively for you. Seems if I’m willing to ask for evidence, then there is some ‘seed’ of faith within me that would accept the evidence if it were ever given. > [@Conservian](#): > > > [@QuickSilver](#): > > > > The world is full of skeptics but not in numbers anywhere near those of the true believers. Trouble is, they believe so many contradictory things and each one is convinced that they have it right. Surely they can’t all be right. > > A remnant of those would likely “be right.” I suppose you are part of this “remnant” ? what makes your version any better than any others? > [@Conservian](#): > > Knowledge of NT Scripture & Spiritual discernment. Hmmmm… I have a pretty good knowledge of the scriptures - I’ve been able to discern that its 99% spiritual bull written years after the fact by non-participants. The original followers had no such ‘scripture’ - how were they able to cope? ---
**Author:** ![Conservian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@Conservian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Conservian)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2013, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/134 "2013-08-31T17:19:25Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Which ones are the remnant? Are you one of the “right” ones? I only know that my responsibility is to ‘stay the course’ as each man must give account of himself first. ---
**Author:** ![Conservian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@Conservian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Conservian)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2013, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/135 "2013-08-31T17:31:27Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Seems if I’m willing to ask for evidence, then there is some ‘seed’ of faith within me that would accept the evidence if it were ever given. > > I suppose you are part of this “remnant” ? what makes your version any better than any others? > > Hmmmm… I have a pretty good knowledge of the scriptures - I’ve been able to discern that its 99% spiritual bull written years after the fact by non-participants. > > The original followers had no such ‘scripture’ - how were they able to cope? You said a lot here, and in a variety of directions. So, I’ll just say If you believe its “99% spiritual bull” then it shouldn’t matter what I say or think or how the “original followers” coped. ---
**Author:** ![Conservian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@Conservian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Conservian)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2013, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/136 "2013-08-31T17:41:09Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Have you tried this with any other religion besides the one you now believe in? Are you claiming that this approach won’t work with any other religion but your? I’ve already claimed that “religion” and Faith are entirely two different things. The former, man’s creation, the latter, the gift of God. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2013, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/137 "2013-08-31T17:46:39Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > I’ve already claimed that “religion” and Faith are entirely two different things. > The former, man’s creation, the latter, the gift of God. You seem to be ignoring the fact that more than one god is being considered here. People have faith in other gods than yours. Some make the same claims you do. You keep responding as if the question is “Why should I believe in GOD”, as if nothing else was out there. ---
**Author:** ![Conservian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@Conservian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Conservian)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2013, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/138 "2013-08-31T17:57:51Z")
[quote=“For You, post:132, topic:667033”] “Heart of the spirit”? Before that can be addressed we need to understand “spirit” in objective terms. _Cogito ergo sum_ (apparently), but beyond that, what? IIUC, you believe that there is an entity that can/will exit your body intact, but how can you even substantively support this belief? Is there viable logic that leads to this spirit/soul business, or is it just a feeling (or wishful thinking)? Biblical doctrine - man is a triune being - body,soul and spirit. ---
**Author:** ![Conservian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@Conservian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Conservian)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2013, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/139 "2013-08-31T18:09:28Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You seem to be ignoring the fact that more than one god is being considered here. People have faith in other gods than yours. Some make the same claims you do. You keep responding as if the question is “Why should I believe in GOD”, as if nothing else was out there. I can’t and won’t speak for the beliefs of others. As for myself, there is only one cosideration - “I AM.” Therefore, I respond accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2013, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033/140 "2013-08-31T18:13:20Z")
[quote=“Conservian, post:138, topic:667033”] > [@For You](#): > > “Heart of the spirit”? Before that can be addressed we need to understand “spirit” in objective terms. _Cogito ergo sum_ (apparently), but beyond that, what? IIUC, you believe that there is an entity that can/will exit your body intact, but how can you even substantively support this belief? Is there viable logic that leads to this spirit/soul business, or is it just a feeling (or wishful thinking)? > > Biblical doctrine - man is a triune being - body,soul and spirit. Circular reasoning again. Why should whatever version of the Bible you follow be acceptable as an authoritative cite for someone who does not first believe that it is acceptable as an authoritative cite? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-in-your-god/667033.md?page=8)