# Convince me I should believe that Free Will really exists! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 20, 2013, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822 "2013-05-20T15:11:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/1 "2013-05-20T15:11:36Z")
Have long held that Free Will is an odd construction- how do mind processes (other than determined physical brain processes) affect behavior. The more I read, the more skeptical I become about the hope for any scientific (empirical) evidence for the existence of free will. I accept that it is a useful construct in determining response to others behaviors (social, criminal responses etc.) but does it have any real effect on the real physical world? If it does exist, when is it apparent in individual human development (when does a fetus find free will?) And when is it apparent in general human development (when did the first animal/person with free will come into existence?) Convince me that it has a real existence and is not a mere interpretive process that makes thought and action easier. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/2 "2013-05-20T15:14:47Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > (when does a fetus find free will?) When he graduates med or law school. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/3 "2013-05-20T15:15:03Z")
I would prefer not. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/4 "2013-05-20T15:15:43Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > When he graduates med or law school. So that would be at the same time it loses its soul in the case of the Lawyer! Interesting! ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/5 "2013-05-20T15:16:44Z")
What about females- do they develop free will before or after grad school? But seriously folks, I’d like your arguments and ideas. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/6 "2013-05-20T15:17:49Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > I would prefer not. Is that preference an automatic and determined physical one, or an act of free will? How would you tell? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/7 "2013-05-20T15:18:07Z")
Free will allows me to say “No!”. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/8 "2013-05-20T15:23:51Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Free will allows me to say “No!”. But physical processes may have determined your action- how do you know which was responsible? ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/9 "2013-05-20T15:25:26Z")
I have heard this arguement a few times before from folks I consider very intelligent critical thinkers. I have a hard time wrapping my head around it. All I can seem to grasp is that I can choose. Past experience does infuence how I choose but I also weigh in consequences and how it might affect others. I would have to say we do indeed have free will. I am a firm believer that we have chemicaly programmed ourselves in how we respond to things and I know that affects the choices I make but I feel as long as I am making choices I have free will. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/10 "2013-05-20T15:27:17Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > But physical processes may have determined your action- how do you know which was responsible? I will consider it free will until someone shows me a chain of events that shows me otherwise-default position. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/11 "2013-05-20T15:28:34Z")
I have freely decided that the OP is deliberately exercising his will not to be swayed from a defective thesis. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/12 "2013-05-20T15:30:01Z")
This hinges on how you define free will. So, before I go any further, **Pjen** , you need to supply your definition of free will. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/13 "2013-05-20T15:32:59Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I will consider it free will until someone shows me a chain of events that shows me otherwise-default position. Isn’t that a bit like assuming the existence of God until someone disproves it? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/14 "2013-05-20T15:36:42Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > This hinges on how you define free will. So, before I go any further, **Pjen** , you need to supply your definition of free will. I would define Free Will as any Human Activity that deviates from a physical-chemical-biological model- where the results of any such causative effect is determined and either predictable or completely unpredictable in being chaotic. To prove Free Will as an object in the world, it would need the ability to divert the chain of causation from what was necessary given initial conditions and history. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/15 "2013-05-20T15:38:29Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Isn’t that a bit like assuming the existence of God until someone disproves it? Quite the opposite, in fact. The claim that everything is set in motion and the randomness doesn’t exist is the extraordinary claim that calls for damn good evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/16 "2013-05-20T15:39:31Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I would define Free Will as any Human Activity that deviates from a physical-chemical-biological model- where the results of any such causative effect is determined and either predictable or completely unpredictable in being chaotic. > > To prove Free Will as an object in the world, it would need the ability to divert the chain of causation from what was necessary given initial conditions and history. Show me that a chain of causation exists before asking me to show a deviation from said chain. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/17 "2013-05-20T15:41:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Quite the opposite, in fact. The claim that everything is set in motion and the randomness doesn’t exist is the extraordinary claim that calls for damn good evidence. I am quite happy to admit randomness. I am less happy to accept that suddenly a magical ability entered the biological world that allowed animals that developed in the last minute fraction of the universe’s existence to subvert the determinism or randomness that had existed since the big bang. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/18 "2013-05-20T15:42:29Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Show me that a chain of causation exists before asking me to show a deviation from said chain. Any physico-chemical reaction. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/19 "2013-05-20T15:43:39Z")
I have no idea how to prove it. If quantum mechanics is a real phenomenon (that is, if it’s not just a great model that mathematically matches reality, but reality really is probabilistic behavior among the fundamental particles of the universe), then even an experiment that somehow showed two choices were really possible, and sometime one would happen and sometimes the other, could be blamed on physics. Further, people can supposedly be fooled into thinking they moved their arm of their own free will when an impulse was sent into nervous system. Nevertheless, I believe things imbued with life have intention, and non-life does not. Can’t prove it, but I believe it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/20 "2013-05-20T15:44:15Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Any physico-chemical reaction. Not sufficient. Show me a chain that leads to any human decision. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822.md?page=2)