# Convince me I should believe that Free Will really exists! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 20, 2013, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822 "2013-05-20T15:11:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/21 "2013-05-20T15:46:23Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I would define Free Will as any Human Activity that deviates from a physical-chemical-biological model- where the results of any such causative effect is determined and either predictable or completely unpredictable in being chaotic. > > To prove Free Will as an object in the world, it would need the ability to divert the chain of causation from what was necessary given initial conditions and history. That’s where we part, then. Free will is not incompatible with physical processes. The brain is part of the person, after all. As a human, I experience and enjoy free will, but it’s not some metaphysically detached soul or spirit or somesuch. ---
**Author:** ![Strinka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/strinka/32/512_2.png) [@Strinka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strinka)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/22 "2013-05-20T15:46:55Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I would define Free Will as any Human Activity that deviates from a physical-chemical-biological model- where the results of any such causative effect is determined and either predictable or completely unpredictable in being chaotic. > > To prove Free Will as an object in the world, it would need the ability to divert the chain of causation from what was necessary given initial conditions and history. That kind of libertarian free will is physically impossible, and of course doesn’t exist. But there is the idea of compatibilist free will. Here’s the [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compatibilism) and [SEP](http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/compatibilism/) articles on the subject. The basic idea is that choice isn’t some magic physics defying thing, but rather an internal process. Consider the difference between being pushed off a building, and jumping. In the case of being pushed, falling is a consequence of external forces. In the case of jumping, falling is a consequence of internal forces. That’s what makes jumping a choice, but being pushed not a choice. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/23 "2013-05-20T15:47:50Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I would define Free Will as any Human Activity that deviates from a physical-chemical-biological model- where the results of any such causative effect is determined and either predictable or completely unpredictable in being chaotic. > > To prove Free Will as an object in the world, it would need the ability to divert the chain of causation from what was necessary given initial conditions and history. I love steak. On any given night out at one of our favourite restaurants my wife can predict what I’m going to order. But the last time out I ordered fish tacos for the first time in my life. My wife was like, WTF? And I was like, Free Will honey! ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/24 "2013-05-20T15:49:43Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > That’s where we part, then. Free will is not incompatible with physical processes. The brain is part of the person, after all. As a human, I experience and enjoy free will, but it’s not some metaphysically detached soul or spirit or somesuch. So does a rock have free will? Does a simple engine? What does make your brain different that it experiences free will? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/25 "2013-05-20T15:52:14Z")
> [@bup](#): > > So does a rock have free will? > > Does a simple engine? > > What does make your brain different that it experiences free will? Rocks and engines have _no_ will, free or otherwise. Silly question. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/26 "2013-05-20T15:54:30Z")
> [@bup](#): > > I have no idea how to prove it. If quantum mechanics is a real phenomenon (that is, if it’s not just a great model that mathematically matches reality, but reality really is probabilistic behavior among the fundamental particles of the universe), then even an experiment that somehow showed two choices were really possible, and sometime one would happen and sometimes the other, could be blamed on physics. > > Further, people can supposedly be fooled into thinking they moved their arm of their own free will when an impulse was sent into nervous system. > > Nevertheless, I believe things imbued with life have intention, and non-life does not. Can’t prove it, but I believe it. I have no problem accepting that human beings and animals have ‘intention’- they are aware of what they want and how to get it. I am merely denying that these intentions are anything other than awareness of physical processes going on in the world. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/27 "2013-05-20T15:54:38Z")
> [@bup](#): > > So does a rock have free will? > > Does a simple engine? :dubious: Rocks and engines have no agency of any kind, free or otherwise. They cannot make choices at all. > [@bup](#): > > What does make your brain different that it experiences free will? My brain, or rather my whole person, has agency. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/28 "2013-05-20T15:57:29Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Not sufficient. Show me a chain that leads to any human decision. Do you not believe that human action is dependent on brain states? For the sake of argument I will allow for the purpose of this post that you have a Free will input into an action, and that you freely decide to, say, raise your arm. What bio-chemical process allows this to happen? That is the chain that you are looking for. Now remove the chimera of Free Will and allow initial state plus history to replace it. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/29 "2013-05-20T15:58:29Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I love steak. On any given night out at one of our favourite restaurants my wife can predict what I’m going to order. But the last time out I ordered fish tacos for the first time in my life. My wife was like, WTF? And I was like, Free Will honey! But maybe that change of habit has a non-magical cause. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/30 "2013-05-20T15:59:47Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > That’s where we part, then. Free will is not incompatible with physical processes. The brain is part of the person, after all. As a human, I experience and enjoy free will, but it’s not some metaphysically detached soul or spirit or somesuch. What is the empirical explanation then for how this ‘Free Will’ affects the physical/chemical world? ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/31 "2013-05-20T16:00:08Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Rocks and engines have _no_ will, free or otherwise. Silly question. It was rhetorical. How did you get will, free or otherwise? **Human Agency** , what is agency, as distinct from will/intention? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/32 "2013-05-20T16:01:20Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Do you not believe that human action is dependent on brain states? > > For the sake of argument I will allow for the purpose of this post that you have a Free will input into an action, and that you freely decide to, say, raise your arm. What bio-chemical process allows this to happen? That is the chain that you are looking for. Now remove the chimera of Free Will and allow initial state plus history to replace it. You are confusing Cause and Effect. I make the decision to move my arm, and those chemical/electrical actions allow my free will to work. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/33 "2013-05-20T16:03:40Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Rocks and engines have _no_ will, free or otherwise. Silly question. How do you ‘know’ that? Does a super computer have free will? Does an ant? Does a thermostat? Does a baby? Does a Fetus? An unfertilized ovum? A spermatazoa? Does a severely demented person? Does an anencephalic baby? Does a Cow? Does a plant? Does a chimpanzee? Did Neanderthals? Did pre-classical humans? What is your empirical decider between these cases? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/34 "2013-05-20T16:05:07Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > What is the empirical explanation then for how this ‘Free Will’ affects the physical/chemical world? Via the agent, in this case, a human. You’re dividing the person into a separate mind/will, and a physical body. They are one and the same. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/35 "2013-05-20T16:05:31Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You are confusing Cause and Effect. I make the decision to move my arm, and those chemical/electrical actions allow my free will to work. What does it mean, that you ‘made the decision to move your arm’? That was just more chemical and electrical processes, right? If an automaton were programmed to move its arm when a chemical level passed a certain threshold, would it have ‘decided’ to move its arm? Would it have free will? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/36 "2013-05-20T16:07:54Z")
> [@bup](#): > > **Human Agency** , what is agency, as distinct from will/intention? Agency is the capacity to act. It is possible, however unlikely, that stones and engines have a will or consciousness of some kind. By all accounts, though, they are incapable of acting. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/37 "2013-05-20T16:08:08Z")
> [@bup](#): > > It was rhetorical. How did you get will, free or otherwise? > > **Human Agency** , what is agency, as distinct from will/intention? Agency is a way of describing behavior- a higher level description of what happens when organisms react to stimuli. It is useful to assume Agency as it is a useful shorthand for explanation. Free Will goes further and claims that there is an object in the world that can divert normal bio-physico-chemico processes. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/38 "2013-05-20T16:10:06Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Via the agent, in this case, a human. You’re dividing the person into a separate mind/will, and a physical body. They are one and the same. I am most certainly not doing that! I am denying that there is a separate mind/will. I do accept that physical brain processes cause experiences. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/39 "2013-05-20T16:11:07Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I am most certainly not doing that! I am denying that there is a separate mind/will. I do accept that physical brain processes cause experiences. To refine, you are asserting that belief in a separate mind underlies belief in free will. This isn’t necessarily so. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/40 "2013-05-20T16:11:31Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > How do you ‘know’ that? > > Does a super computer have free will? Does an ant? Does a thermostat? Does a baby? Does a Fetus? An unfertilized ovum? A spermatazoa? Does a severely demented person? Does an anencephalic baby? Does a Cow? Does a plant? Does a chimpanzee? Did Neanderthals? Did pre-classical humans? > > What is your empirical decider between these cases? Is free will a binary state or is it fuzzy? Are these animate and inanimate objects aware of their options in their given circumstances? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822.md?page=3)