# Convince me I should believe that Free Will really exists! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 20, 2013, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822 "2013-05-20T15:11:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/41 "2013-05-20T16:11:42Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Agency is the capacity to act. It is possible, however unlikely, that stones and engines have a will or consciousness of some kind. By all accounts, though, they are incapable of acting. Does my desktop computer have the ability to act? Do non-human animals? When is this ability to act inserted into the world? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/42 "2013-05-20T16:19:24Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Does my desktop computer have the ability to act? No. It doesn’t make the choice to act. > [@Pjen](#): > > Do non-human animals? They can, to a limited degree. > [@Pjen](#): > > When is this ability to act inserted into the world? It’s simply the product of having the ability to act, and the capacity to make the choice to act. It can be further refined as being goal-directed or not, conscious or unconscious. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/43 "2013-05-20T16:20:26Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Does my desktop computer have the ability to act? Do non-human animals? When is this ability to act inserted into the world? I submit that it happens at the moment in time when the object in question is aware of its options and is not over-ridden with instict based reactions or pre-determined instructions (computer). ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/44 "2013-05-20T16:21:59Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > No. It doesn’t make the choice to act. > > They can, to a limited degree. > > It’s simply the product of having the ability to act, and the capacity to make the choice to act. It can be further refined as being goal-directed or not, conscious or unconscious. What is your criteria for having the ability to act? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/45 "2013-05-20T16:23:50Z")
> [@Strinka](#): > > That kind of libertarian free will is physically impossible, and of course doesn’t exist. > > But there is the idea of compatibilist free will. Here’s the [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compatibilism) and [SEP](http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/compatibilism/) articles on the subject. > > The basic idea is that choice isn’t some magic physics defying thing, but rather an internal process. Consider the difference between being pushed off a building, and jumping. In the case of being pushed, falling is a consequence of external forces. In the case of jumping, falling is a consequence of internal forces. That’s what makes jumping a choice, but being pushed not a choice. Isn’t compatibilism just an attempt to save face? What does it actually mean beyond analysing hu,an thought processes ---
**Author:** ![Trom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@Trom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trom)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/46 "2013-05-20T16:25:33Z")
> [@Strinka](#): > > That kind of libertarian free will is physically impossible, and of course doesn’t exist. > > But there is the idea of compatibilist free will. Here’s the [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compatibilism) and [SEP](http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/compatibilism/) articles on the subject. > > The basic idea is that choice isn’t some magic physics defying thing, but rather an internal process. Consider the difference between being pushed off a building, and jumping. In the case of being pushed, falling is a consequence of external forces. In the case of jumping, falling is a consequence of internal forces. That’s what makes jumping a choice, but being pushed not a choice. I’ve tried to understand how Compatibilism solves the problem numerous times before. Every time I find myself agreeing with William James and Kant that it is nothing but a “quagmire of evasion,” and “word jugglery.” I truly don’t understand how it supposedly occupies some type of middle ground. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/47 "2013-05-20T16:26:52Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > What is your criteria for having the ability to act? Can you think of _any_ criteria that would include rocks? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/48 "2013-05-20T16:28:12Z")
Make me. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/49 "2013-05-20T16:28:39Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > What is your criteria for having the ability to act? In the simplest terms, it’s just willful movement. Stones can’t move at all, engines can move but not willfully. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/50 "2013-05-20T16:29:02Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Can you think of _any_ criteria that would include rocks? Rocks are pre-determined NOT to act…? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/51 "2013-05-20T16:30:06Z")
> [@Trom](#): > > I’ve tried to understand how Compatibilism solves the problem numerous times before. Every time I find myself agreeing with William James and Kant that it is nothing but a “quagmire of evasion,” and “word jugglery.” I truly don’t understand how it supposedly occupies some type of middle ground. I am quite happy that compatibilism does solve one Free Will problem- ‘How is it possible to believe in a physically determined universe at the same time as allowing Free Will?’, the answer being- we accept that there is a social construct called Free Will that has great explanatory power. It makes justice systems and discussion of human behavior simple and easy to maintain. It makes no claim to the actual causation of the effect by such ‘Free Will’, merely allowing ir as an object of discussion, not an object in the real world. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/52 "2013-05-20T16:31:08Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Can you think of _any_ criteria that would include rocks? Not that I agree with it, pan-psychism. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/53 "2013-05-20T16:31:30Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Can you think of _any_ criteria that would include rocks? There’s no reason to include rocks as having the ability to act. But rocks are made of matter, and have energy. I was just bringing rocks up in a poor attempt to illustrate there’s a difference between non-intentioned systems and intentioned systems. Bringing up my rock example over and over does not prove free will. It might, at best, have bacteria in it that we could argue about whether they are part of the rock, and whether they have intention. But never mind. What about the electric eye that keeps my garage door from going down if it’s interrupted? It acts internally according to external perceptions. Does it make decisions? Is it an agent? Does it have will? Is it free will? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/54 "2013-05-20T16:33:17Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > In the simplest terms, it’s just willful movement. Stones can’t move at all, engines can move but not willfully. Please supply criteria for when Free Will enters the world: Rocks Plants Bacteria Reptiles Mammals Apes Chimpanzees Early hominids Pre-classical Homo sapiens sapiens ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/55 "2013-05-20T16:37:11Z")
> [@bup](#): > > What about the electric eye that keeps my garage door from going down if it’s interrupted? It acts internally according to external perceptions. Q1:Does it make decisions? Q2:Is it an agent? Q3:Does it have will? Q4:Is it free will? Q1: yes Q2: no Q3: no Q4: no ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/56 "2013-05-20T16:40:18Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Please supply criteria for when Free Will enters the world: > > Rocks > Plants > Bacteria > Reptiles > Mammals > Apes > Chimpanzees > Early hominids > Pre-classical Homo sapiens sapiens At the risk of repeating myself: I submit that it happens at the moment in time when the object in question is aware of its options and is not over-ridden with instinct based reactions(self preservation) or pre-determined instructions (computer). ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/57 "2013-05-20T16:40:41Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Please supply criteria for when Free Will enters the world: > > Rocks > Plants > Bacteria > Reptiles > Mammals > Apes > Chimpanzees > Early hominids > Pre-classical Homo sapiens sapiens Sentience. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/58 "2013-05-20T16:41:49Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Please supply criteria or when Free Will enters the world: > > Rocks > Plants > Bacteria > Reptiles > Mammals > Apes > Chimpanzees > Early hominids > Pre-classical Homo sapiens sapiens Let’s see…taking free will to mean the freedom at act according to one’s determined motives, the criteria would be a) the ability to act, and b) the ability to form motives. That removes rocks, plants, and bacteria. Frankly, I don’t know enough about reptiles to make an intelligent judgement about their ability to form motives. Mammals - some, yes. Apes - quite possibly; probably need to consult a primatologist. Early hominids - it appears so, depending on how early you mean. Certainly Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons. Homo sapiens - yes. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/59 "2013-05-20T16:44:40Z")
> [@](#): > > Convince me I should believe that Free Will really exists! No thanks. You are going to believe whatever you want anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/60 "2013-05-20T16:44:44Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > At the risk of repeating myself: > > I submit that it happens at the moment in time when the object in question is aware of its options and is not over-ridden with instinct based reactions(self preservation) or pre-determined instructions (computer). And when in phylogenetic development would that be and how do we know? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822.md?page=4)