# Convince me I should believe that Free Will really exists! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 20, 2013, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822 "2013-05-20T15:11:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/61 "2013-05-20T16:45:45Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Sentience. What is sentience? Who/what has it? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/62 "2013-05-20T16:52:00Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Let’s see…taking free will to mean the freedom at act according to one’s determined motives, the criteria would be a) the ability to act, and b) the ability to form motives. > > That removes rocks, plants, and bacteria. > > Frankly, I don’t know enough about reptiles to make an intelligent judgement about their ability to form motives. > > Mammals - some, yes. > > Apes - quite possibly; probably need to consult a primatologist. > > Early hominids - it appears so, depending on how early you mean. Certainly Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons. > > Homo sapiens - yes. How do we know that? For instance, ants seem to have well directed behaviour. How would one determine whether they had ‘freedom to act’? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/63 "2013-05-20T16:53:14Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > And when in phylogenetic development would that be and how do we know? That’s a job for biologists and various other scientists to identify. But I believe that for the purposes of the OP, this isn’t even the correct question to be asking. If I understand the OP, you lean towards determinism and by implication you make the claim that all decisions are pre-determined at or around the time of the origin of the universe, is that a correct assumption? If so, would you not consider that to be an extra-ordinary claim? ---
**Author:** ![Trom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@Trom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trom)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/64 "2013-05-20T16:53:17Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I am quite happy that compatibilism does solve one Free Will problem- ‘How is it possible to believe in a physically determined universe at the same time as allowing Free Will?’, the answer being- we accept that there is a social construct called Free Will that has great explanatory power. It makes justice systems and discussion of human behavior simple and easy to maintain. It makes no claim to the actual causation of the effect by such ‘Free Will’, merely allowing ir as an object of discussion, not an object in the real world. Right, and I get that. It’s hardly what most people are talking about when discussing the topic. It’s just a (poor, IMO) dodge of the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/65 "2013-05-20T16:54:23Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > What is sentience? Who/what has it? How far do we have to proceed with your chain of “What is…?” queries/diversions before we can get back to the topic? > [@Merriam-Webster](#): > > **sen·tient** > adjective \ˈsen(t)-sh(ē-)ənt, ˈsen-tē-ənt\ > > Definition of SENTIENT > 1: responsive to or conscious of sense impressions \ > 2: aware > 3: finely sensitive in perception or feeling > > — sen·tient·ly adverb ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/66 "2013-05-20T16:58:06Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > How do we know that? > > For instance, ants seem to have well directed behaviour. How would one determine whether they had ‘freedom to act’? We are limited in our ability to know the minds of others. As you and I are humans, we can make reasonable inferences that other humans’ minds work something like ours. In the case of non-humans, we can observe behavior and examine the nervous system, but that’s about it. Until we have more sufficiently advanced technology, we cannot know the mind of an ant. As for their freedom to act, we can ask: can an ant disobey directives external to it?, for a start. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/67 "2013-05-20T16:58:26Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > That’s a job for biologists and various other scientists to identify. But I believe that for the purposes of the OP, this isn’t even the correct question to be asking. > > If I understand the OP, you lean towards determinism and by implication you make the claim that all decisions are pre-determined at or around the time of the origin of the universe, is that a correct assumption? If so, would you not consider that to be an extra-ordinary claim? No, I would consider that the claim that Free Will in some way changes the laws of physics (with apologies to Scotty) is the extra-ordinary claim. The Universe is some 14 billion years. If we accept that homo sapiens sapiens is the first creature to attain free will, then the universe existed without such an entity for 99.999993% of its existence without free will, and then suddenly it became tremendously important for the final 0.000007% of time. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/68 "2013-05-20T17:00:30Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How far do we have to proceed with your chain of “What is…?” queries/diversions before we can get back to the topic? I can think of many non-human, non-biological objects that meet criteria 1, and might argue for awareness for lower animals in whom we would not want to invest much free will. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/69 "2013-05-20T17:01:57Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > How do we know that? > > For instance, ants seem to have well directed behaviour. How would one determine whether they had ‘freedom to act’? I don’t think we can anymore than we can assume that they did not have the freedom to act. Not without further studies anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/70 "2013-05-20T17:03:14Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > We are limited in our ability to know the minds of others. As you and I are humans, we can make reasonable inferences that other humans’ minds work something like ours. In the case of non-humans, we can observe behavior and examine the nervous system, but that’s about it. Until we have more sufficiently advanced technology, we cannot know the mind of an ant. > > As for their freedom to act, we can ask: can an ant disobey directives external to it?, for a start. I don’t know, but does it have the ability to consider various options and take a decision? That is the crux of the matter. I am quite willing to allow that assuming a convenient phrase like ‘free will’ makes discourse on behavior easier, but that does not admit that it has any causative effect. For instance, I might find it easier to describe your social behavior if I knew how you voted, but that does not mean that your voting intention determines your actions. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/71 "2013-05-20T17:04:14Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I don’t think we can anymore than we can assume that they did not have the freedom to act. Not without further studies anyway. So ‘Free Will’ is an object that lacks any defining criteria- we must just assume/presume? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/72 "2013-05-20T17:04:54Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I can think of many non-human, non-biological objects that meet criteria 1, and might argue for awareness for lower animals in whom we would not want to invest much free will. That is why there is more than one criteria. You don’t take individual ingredients for a cake and ask “Is this a cake?” ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/73 "2013-05-20T17:07:28Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I don’t know, but does it have the ability to consider various options and take a decision? That is the crux of the matter. Does it? I’ve no idea. > [@Pjen](#): > > I am quite willing to allow that assuming a convenient phrase like ‘free will’ makes discourse on behavior easier, but that does not admit that it has any causative effect. Of course it has a causative effect. There is a bridge linking the upper and lower peninsulas of Michigan. It was conceived, designed, and built by humans. Do you mean to suggest that this bridge came to exist though some means other than deliberate choice? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/74 "2013-05-20T17:09:48Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > No, I would consider that the claim that Free Will in some way changes the laws of physics (with apologies to Scotty) is the extra-ordinary claim. > > The Universe is some 14 billion years. If we accept that homo sapiens sapiens is the first creature to attain free will, then the universe existed without such an entity for 99.999993% of its existence without free will, and then suddenly it became tremendously important for the final 0.000007% of time. I do not accept that homo sapiens were the first creatures to exhibit free will. And while the universe is in fact as old as you say, the fact that free will may be argued to exist only in the last 0.0000007% of its existance, does not mean that it’s not possible for it to have existed earlier - simply that there (possibly) were no sentient entities to exercise it until more recently. ---
**Author:** ![Strinka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/strinka/32/512_2.png) [@Strinka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strinka)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/75 "2013-05-20T17:10:41Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Isn’t compatibilism just an attempt to save face? What does it actually mean beyond analysing hu,an thought processes > [@Trom](#): > > I’ve tried to understand how Compatibilism solves the problem numerous times before. Every time I find myself agreeing with William James and Kant that it is nothing but a “quagmire of evasion,” and “word jugglery.” I truly don’t understand how it supposedly occupies some type of middle ground. If by “Free will” you mean libertarian free will, then that does not and cannot exist. But words are allowed to have multiple meanings. And in this case, the first meaning, libertarian free will is a rather useless concept, since it isn’t real. So why not use the concept of compatibilist free will, which does (or at least can) exist? And yes it is about human thought processes, because that’s how humans make decisions, which is generally what you’re interested in when you’re talking about free will. > [@Pjen](#): > > I am quite happy that compatibilism does solve one Free Will problem- ‘How is it possible to believe in a physically determined universe at the same time as allowing Free Will?’, the answer being- we accept that there is a social construct called Free Will that has great explanatory power. It makes justice systems and discussion of human behavior simple and easy to maintain. It makes no claim to the actual causation of the effect by such ‘Free Will’, merely allowing ir as an object of discussion, not an object in the real world. Compatibilist free will is not merely a social construct. It is a real thing that does exist. If a car moves, was it because of its engine, or because of physics? Both. The engine is part of physics. If a human makes a decision, was it because of free will or physics? Both. Free will is a decision making process in the brain, that runs on physics. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/76 "2013-05-20T17:19:47Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > So ‘Free Will’ is an object that lacks any defining criteria- we must just assume/presume? No, ‘Free Will’ is an action. We can argue about the chemical/physical components that allow the action to take place and the circumstances under which the action is (or is not) executed. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/77 "2013-05-20T17:44:34Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That is why there is more than one criteria. You don’t take individual ingredients for a cake and ask “Is this a cake?” So all of those dictionary definitions would need to be met for sentience to exist? Usually 1,2,3 lists in dictionaries are alternatives! ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/78 "2013-05-20T17:45:55Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That is why there is more than one criteria. You don’t take individual ingredients for a cake and ask “Is this a cake?” Specifically, then, a boorish person would not be sentient according to that definition: " finely sensitive in perception or feeling " ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/79 "2013-05-20T17:47:27Z")
> [@Strinka](#): > > If by “Free will” you mean libertarian free will, then that does not and cannot exist. > > But words are allowed to have multiple meanings. And in this case, the first meaning, libertarian free will is a rather useless concept, since it isn’t real. So why not use the concept of compatibilist free will, which does (or at least can) exist? > > And yes it is about human thought processes, because that’s how humans make decisions, which is generally what you’re interested in when you’re talking about free will. > > Compatibilist free will is not merely a social construct. It is a real thing that does exist. > > If a car moves, was it because of its engine, or because of physics? Both. The engine is part of physics. > > If a human makes a decision, was it because of free will or physics? Both. Free will is a decision making process in the brain, that runs on physics. Those are excellent examples- physics and free will are constructs but not the actual causes- constructs explain but do not compel! ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2013, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822/80 "2013-05-20T17:48:28Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Does it? I’ve no idea. > > Of course it has a causative effect. There is a bridge linking the upper and lower peninsulas of Michigan. It was conceived, designed, and built by humans. Do you mean to suggest that this bridge came to exist though some means other than deliberate choice? Ants build ant hills. Are they making a deliberate choice? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-i-should-believe-that-free-will-really-exists/658822.md?page=5)