# Convince me not to be racist **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 17, 2014, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-be-racist/695781 "2014-08-17T21:35:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-be-racist/695781/61 "2014-08-18T20:20:42Z")
Job well done everybody. I think you’ve convinced him. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-be-racist/695781/62 "2014-08-18T20:29:43Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Job well done everybody. I think you’ve convinced him. Sooo…I take it you’re in the market for magic beans? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-be-racist/695781/63 "2014-08-18T21:38:45Z")
[Three white people indicted for murder in Alpharetta](http://www.ajc.com/news/news/alpharetta-heroin-use-leads-to-fulton-county-murde/ngrjs/) [White man tried for murdering his wife](http://www.ajc.com/news/news/man-to-be-retried-for-2010-death-of-wife/ngy8P/) That’s two off the front page of my search. So 100% black is easily refuted. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-be-racist/695781/64 "2014-08-18T21:45:10Z")
I can convince the OP (as if he’ll return) to not be a racist. [the Rants & Raves section of Craigslist Atlanta](http://atlanta.craigslist.org/rnr/#pic). Do you really want in with these people? ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-be-racist/695781/65 "2014-08-18T21:54:43Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > That’s two off the front page of my search. So 100% black is easily refuted. Those aren’t technically in Atlanta but they are in the metropolitan area. Of course, the OP is relying precisely on that sort of narrowly defined cherry-picking in the first place. “Lies, damned lies, and statistics” sort of reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-be-racist/695781/66 "2014-08-18T21:55:35Z")
The OP is demanding to be reasoned out of an unreasonable prejudice. It doesn’t work like that. I do think it’s worth pointing out that statistics cannot be used the way the OP is using them. You can’t look at crime stats, say ‘a disproportionate percentage of these crimes are being committed by black people,’ and then learn anything useful about how to deal with any individual black person. People here do occasionally make that mistake. > [@G-SE](#): > > I’m most interested in why, given the statistics of crime in Atlanta, I should treat Black people equally, with as much trust and respect, as a non-Black person? If that’s how you feel, go ahead and “become” a racist. They’ll be glad to have you and any other person who thinks this way, and they won’t bother you with things like appeals to logic and reason and decency. ---
**Author:** ![GoodOmens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@GoodOmens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GoodOmens)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-be-racist/695781/67 "2014-08-18T22:10:55Z")
> [@nachtmusick](#): > > San Jose, California is the tenth largest city in the United States. Only 4 percent of the population is black, but there are a lot of poor. The crime rate has recently reached national average: > > [San Jose crime rate surpasses U.S. average, arrests plummet – The Mercury News](http://www.mercurynews.com/pensions/ci_24737175/san-jose-crime-rate-surpasses-u-s-average-arrests-plummet) > > That is a lot of work for just 4 percent of the populace to accomplish. Well, we all know that black people are all natural athletes. They can run faster and that lets them commit more crimes. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-be-racist/695781/68 "2014-08-18T22:38:01Z")
[Telling white people that the criminal justice system is racist makes them more racist](http://pss.sagepub.com/content/early/2014/08/05/0956797614540307.full). So there is a downside to fighting ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-be-racist/695781/69 "2014-08-18T22:51:08Z")
I think the most obvious issue in all of this is that “race” is not a clearly-defined biological issue. There is no clear biological marker for “black” or “white”. There’s just skin color… But that doesn’t help us much at all, because genetically, there’s [far more diversity within disparate “races” than between them](http://raceandgenomics.ssrc.org/Lewontin/). Very little of genetic differences within humans (6-10%) are shown to be differences across what we would typically define as “races”, and there is absolutely no solid genetic lines to be drawn - rather, haplogroups are _all over the place_. There are no solid groupings to be drawn (with the exception of certain isolated populations and Australian Aborigenes), only vague gradients. There is no evidence whatsoever of any genetic component to the issues facing black culture. There is no scientific basis for the claim that race is anything more than a social construct, and there are virtually no biologists or geneticists who believe that it is. So to answer the question posed in the OP: because “black person” is an entirely cultural phenomenon, and that as a result it is entirely fair to assume that there is some cultural aspect here. Aspects such as a long, dark history of disenfranchisement, mistrust, and straight-up slavery, all of which come down to one thing: _racism_. By treating this as a racial issue (by torturing statistics, as others have pointed out - “more crimes are committed by black people” is not the same thing as “black people are all criminals” or even “black people are significantly more likely to be criminals”) rather than what it really is, a cultural and economic issue, you are doing nothing but perpetuating the vicious cycle. ---
**Author:** ![eman77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f04885/32.png) [@eman77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eman77)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-be-racist/695781/70 "2014-08-18T23:31:27Z")
**G-SE** , I’m going to try to talk to you using your own logic, since that’s what you asked in the OP. The truth is I understand where you’re coming from, I understand how you came to your conclusions and I’m going to try to reason you out of your beliefs using your current beliefs. I’m guessing that none of the posters before me have managed to convince you out of your beliefs, simply because they have brought you logical arguments that don’t really respond to what you are saying. A couple points to note: 1. Some posters are trying to give the argument that there is not much statistical proof showing that blacks commit more crimes than whites. This is untrue via the eye test and via the statistical test. I believe that **G-SE** was not incorrect when he stated that blacks are arrested for and commit a larger number of crimes of all sorts of variety. (The African American man who died in a chokehold by a police officer a few weeks ago had 30+ arrest in his life!; The 18 year old in Ferguson just robbed a convenience store and had a cop on him for a completely unrelated charge) 2. A previous poster was correct in stating that the median income does not mean anything. If a city has 2 residents and 1 makes $10,000 a year and the other makes $100,000 a year that gives the city a median income of $55,000. I used to do market research for companies and this is true of MANY different cities. There are poor right next to the rich. It’s going to be hard to get a realistic response to your post simply because this generation is conditioned to “Racism is bad” and block out any arguments that might tell them this might not be the case. That is why some of the responses here seem circular. That is because they are. Although it’s tough to argue this is a bad belief to have, it does lead to strange responses and denial of facts. What’s going on here (if I use some basic CBT principles) is that your belief structure looks like this: Crime is bad Most crime is committed by African Americans African Americans are bad It is a classic All or Nothing bias. It is very similar to an insecure person having a belief such as: Being weird is bad I am weird sometimes I am bad The best response in this thread came from the person who rewrote your OP in terms of men committing the most crime. Of all your responses, your response to that post (at least to me) seemed the flimsiest. That person had a good point. Crime is bad Most crime is committed by Men Some Men are bad See the difference? That is the cause of your racism. You attribute ALL black people as bad due to most crime being attributed to them. The best belief (and the most realistic and safe to hold) for yourself should not be “Racism is bad so I’m going to pretend the crime stats are equal and make excuses for everybody” but should instead be: There is a larger number of African Americans who commit crimes compared to Whites There are many African Americans who do not commit crimes I will use my judgement on a case by case basis to decide which person is safe or not In other words, the same belief system you have for most men you meet, with the difference being that you have an understanding that there may be a higher risk of running into a “bad” than a good. That last sentence might get me into trouble here, oh well. ---
**Author:** ![7e42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/7/51bf81/32.png) [@7e42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/7e42)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-be-racist/695781/71 "2014-08-19T00:18:18Z")
> [@G-SE](#): > > I am a white male living in Atlanta, GA. I’m sure that most posters on this message board would classify me as “racist” due to the beliefs I hold in regards to Black people. Below is a snapshot of the city I live in, and why it has caused the beliefs that I hold. > > Although the city of Atlanta is made up of only [54%](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Atlanta#Race_and_ethnicity) Blacks - Black people account for: > > Murder: 100% > Forcible Rape: 100% > Robbery: 95% > Aggravated Assault: 92% > Burglary: 89% > Larceny: 87% > Motor Vehicle Theft: 100% > Other Assaults: 90% > > These numbers are from the Atlanta Police Department’s [Uniform Crime Report](http://www.atlantapd.org/uniformcrimereports.aspx)\* for May 2014. These % are for just one month, but hold basically true for any month you look at. > > - I do realize these numbers reflect arrests only, not convictions, but I have no other details to go by > > Based on the numbers above, I can make assumptions regarding Black people that are 100% true: > > - For any violent crime committed in Atlanta, it was most likely committed by a Black person > - A black person in Atlanta is more likely to commit a crime than a non-black person > - Black people commit a disproportionate amount of crime compared to their population > etc. > > Without any reason to believe that Black criminal behavior in Atlanta is just an anomaly or an exception, I extend those assumptions to all Black people throughout the country. Especially given that national trends show very similar patterns. Yet all those assumptions are considered “racist” by most liberals on this board. Why are assumptions based on facts just hand-waved away by so many? > > The other question is WHY is there such a disproportionate amount of crime among the black community? One common excuse I hear from the left is because the system is racist and geared against them, etc. > > Well, let’s look at Atlanta: > > APD Chief of Police: Black > Atlanta Mayor: Black > Fulton County District Attorney: Black > Fulton County Superior Court Chief Judge: Black > > I have trouble seeing how all these Blacks are the ones oppressing the Black community and are the cause for their mistreatment in the legal system. > > The other excuse I always hear is because of poverty. In 2009, the median income for a household in the city was $47,464 and the median income for a family was $59,711. (2009 US Median income for household was $49,777) > > I know that this is really a two-part debate, but I’m most interested in why, given the statistics of crime in Atlanta, I should treat Black people equally, with as much trust and respect, as a non-Black person? I will give it a shot, “The white is not perfect?” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-be-racist/695781/72 "2014-08-21T17:53:59Z")
> [@G-SE](#): > > I know that this is really a two-part debate, but I’m most interested in why, given the statistics of crime in Atlanta, I should treat Black people equally, with as much trust and respect, as a non-Black person? Because most of them are not criminals? ---
**Author:** ![LonghornDave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@LonghornDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonghornDave)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-be-racist/695781/73 "2014-08-21T20:57:37Z")
> [@G-SE](#): > > I know that this is really a two-part debate, but I’m most interested in why, given the statistics of crime in Atlanta, I should treat Black people equally, with as much trust and respect, as a non-Black person? Well, being disrespectful to someone you think has a high likelihood of murdering you doesn’t seem very smart. ---
**Author:** ![LonghornDave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@LonghornDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonghornDave)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-be-racist/695781/74 "2014-08-21T21:25:59Z")
Perhaps it would help if the OP stated how he personally treats black people differently. Further, what reasons does he think accounts for the statistics he outlined. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-be-racist/695781/75 "2014-08-21T22:27:52Z")
> [@eman77](#): > > **G-SE** , > I’m going to try to talk to you using your own logic, since that’s what you asked in the OP. > > The truth is I understand where you’re coming from, I understand how you came to your conclusions and I’m going to try to reason you out of your beliefs using your current beliefs. I’m guessing that none of the posters before me have managed to convince you out of your beliefs, simply because they have brought you logical arguments that don’t really respond to what you are saying. > > A couple points to note: > > 1. Some posters are trying to give the argument that there is not much statistical proof showing that blacks commit more crimes than whites. This is untrue via the eye test and via the statistical test. I believe that **G-SE** was not incorrect when he stated that blacks are arrested for and commit a larger number of crimes of all sorts of variety. (The African American man who died in a chokehold by a police officer a few weeks ago had 30+ arrest in his life!; The 18 year old in Ferguson just robbed a convenience store and had a cop on him for a completely unrelated charge) > > 2. A previous poster was correct in stating that the median income does not mean anything. If a city has 2 residents and 1 makes $10,000 a year and the other makes $100,000 a year that gives the city a median income of $55,000. I used to do market research for companies and this is true of MANY different cities. There are poor right next to the rich. > > It’s going to be hard to get a realistic response to your post simply because this generation is conditioned to “Racism is bad” and block out any arguments that might tell them this might not be the case. That is why some of the responses here seem circular. That is because they are. Although it’s tough to argue this is a bad belief to have, it does lead to strange responses and denial of facts. > > What’s going on here (if I use some basic CBT principles) is that your belief structure looks like this: > > Crime is bad > Most crime is committed by African Americans > African Americans are bad > > It is a classic All or Nothing bias. It is very similar to an insecure person having a belief such as: > > Being weird is bad > I am weird sometimes > I am bad > > The best response in this thread came from the person who rewrote your OP in terms of men committing the most crime. Of all your responses, your response to that post (at least to me) seemed the flimsiest. That person had a good point. > > Crime is bad > Most crime is committed by Men > Some Men are bad > > See the difference? > > That is the cause of your racism. You attribute ALL black people as bad due to most crime being attributed to them. > > The best belief (and the most realistic and safe to hold) for yourself should not be “Racism is bad so I’m going to pretend the crime stats are equal and make excuses for everybody” but should instead be: > > There is a larger number of African Americans who commit crimes compared to Whites > There are many African Americans who do not commit crimes > I will use my judgement on a case by case basis to decide which person is safe or not > > In other words, the same belief system you have for most men you meet, with the difference being that you have an understanding that there may be a higher risk of running into a “bad” than a good. > > That last sentence might get me into trouble here, oh well. Your response has been the best, if not the only one, to actually address the OP. I think we are on the right track here, but we are still left with your last sentence. So, not all blacks are bad, but whites should be more “scared” when running into a random black person that running into a random white person? I think we need to go further to get rid of racism. The male vs. female thing usually comes down to physical strength anyways. Putting race aside, I don’t think that the skinny frat girl is going to roll me and steal my car. The 250 lb. tall muscular dude? Maybe. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-be-racist/695781/76 "2014-08-21T22:30:39Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > So, not all blacks are bad, but whites should be more “scared” when running into a random black person that running into a random white person? Again: that’s not how statistics work. Crime stats do not tell you how to deal with a random individual, and behaving as if they do so would be idiotic. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-be-racist/695781/77 "2014-08-21T22:35:28Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > So, not all blacks are bad, but whites should be more “scared” when running into a random black person that running into a random white person? Should Americans be more scared about running into a man eating tiger or a wolf while in their home towns? Technically, the wolf, since there aren’t any wild tigers running around North America. Worrying about either is pretty silly. Human beings are pretty bad at statistics. They’re good at risk avoidance, though. That’s a great survival strategy for the savannah. Not so good for accurately assessing the true risk of a threat nor for rational consideration based on the race of potential threats. What this means is that for basic survival, there’s more danger is declaring something safe and being wrong than declaring something dangerous and being wrong. If you’re only looking to survive, these kinds of generalizations and stereotypes work fine. But if you want something based more on actual numbers and something that reflects reality, the basic human kind of gut instinct response is lousy. > [@jtgain](#): > > Putting race aside, I don’t think that the skinny frat girl is going to roll me and steal my car. The 250 lb. tall muscular dude? Maybe. Seems to fit here, too, so I’ll repeat it. Worrying about either is pretty silly. Human beings are pretty bad at statistics. They’re good at risk avoidance, though. That’s a great survival strategy for the savannah. Not so good for accurately assessing the true risk of a threat nor for rational consideration based on the race (gender/size in this case) of potential threats. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-be-racist/695781/78 "2014-08-21T22:59:28Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Again: that’s not how statistics work. Crime stats do not tell you how to deal with a random individual, and behaving as if they do so would be idiotic. I agree with you in principle, but from what everyone seems to agree with, which would be the best choice in this situation: I am looking for a place to park near a venue, and I have two choices. The first choice has several black teenagers loitering. The second choice has several white teenagers loitering. All of the other buildings, access points, etc. seem similar. I, like most people, am not terrified about having my car stolen or broken into, but I would rather it not happen. Having only this information: 1. Is it a rational decision to park by the white teenagers? 2. Is it a racist decision to park by the white teenagers? Should we have evolved to the point where we pay no attention to the race of the teenagers and conclude that both parking spots are in all respects the same? To get to that point, we need to rebut the inference that it is illogical to consider the race of the individuals in deciding where to park. ---
**Author:** ![chicagowhitesox1173](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/46a35a/32.png) [@chicagowhitesox1173](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chicagowhitesox1173)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-be-racist/695781/79 "2014-08-22T01:01:40Z")
Are black crime rates higher in all areas of the world? Or is this just a United States thing. I’m not trying to say every black neighborhood is bad. I know of some that are actually really good. I’m just curious if blacks commit a lot of violent crimes in Britain or France? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-be-racist/695781/80 "2014-08-22T01:47:51Z")
> [@G-SE](#): > > I’m more than willing to change my mind if someone can give me a good reason to ignore the reality I’ve described. Reality has nothing to do with racism. To be a racist means that you believe that: 1. A person of a particular race should not be evaluated on his personal merit. 2. A person must necessarily become bad, based on his race. If the mayor of Atlanta and the President of the USA and Colin Powell all seem like reasonable people to you, and worthy of being where they are, then you’re not racist. From your writing, you don’t seem to have any ill-will towards your mayor, DA, Chief of Police, etc. which would seem to imply that you’re willing to judge a person on an individual level. Yes, it might be a reality that black people are the most likely to cause crimes per capita in the USA in 2014, but is that just the state of affairs today, due to a history of slavery and its after-effects in our nation, or a fact for the rest of time that can and will be correlated to skin pigment inescapably? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-be-racist/695781.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-be-racist/695781.md?page=5)