# Convince me not to be racist **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 17, 2014, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-be-racist/695781 "2014-08-17T21:35:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-be-racist/695781/101 "2014-08-23T23:12:38Z")
> [@eman77](#): > > And to piss you off a little bit, I’m rewording your post slightly to point out some hypocrisy. Pissed off? Nah. Just not impressed and not amused. > [@](#): > > You have the same exact belief structure as the OP, difference being it’s pointed towards different people. That’s false. I do not have the same belief structure as the OP. And I certainly do not have the beliefs you put in your fake quote. Being racist is a choice. Being a member of a race isn’t. Racists have decided to remove themselves from decency. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-be-racist/695781/102 "2014-08-23T23:26:23Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Unless you are also refusing to invest in any financial entity that is run by white men, you only demonstrate a seriously inconsistent pattern of thought, (as well as a failure to think logically), if you insist that a racist position makes any sense. I don’t think that’s really a fair analogy. It IS true in the US today that black men commit violent crimes at a higher rate per capita than non-blacks. It is not true, as far as I know, that white bankers committed banking fraud at a higher rate per capita than non-white bankers. The two relevant points are: (1) even if blacks commit violent crimes at a higher rate per capita, the chances of any single individual black person being a violent criminal is still tiny (2) there are a zillion historical and social factors that can explain some or all of the difference in crime rates, without assuming that it’s innate or genetic. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-be-racist/695781/103 "2014-08-23T23:33:47Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > In my personal experience, it’s a complete waste of time and effort to “convince someone not to be racist”. When dealing with a racist adult, the go-to choice is ignore and avoid. Racists are not polite society. Any attempt to “convince” is simply coddling them. I don’t think that can possibly be true. Has no one in the history of the universe ever at one point been somewhat of a racist, and then later on in their life been less of a racist? And if that sort of change is possible, what’s more likely to trigger it… reasoned and polite discussion or snide dismissal? (Probably the MOST likely thing is actual lengthy exposure to people of that race who do NOT fit the stereotypes, but that’s not something we can induce via SDMB discussion…) ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2014, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-be-racist/695781/104 "2014-08-24T00:01:38Z")
I haven’t lived throughout history. I live now. My personal experience has been with people purportedly educated in modern times in a multi-cultural society. ---
**Author:** ![nachtmusick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ac91a4/32.png) [@nachtmusick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nachtmusick)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2014, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-be-racist/695781/105 "2014-08-24T00:05:02Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > Here, you have identified something that YOU can do to help break that cycle and appear to be asking whether you should do it. The answer is yes. Trusting black people to the same extent and in the same manner as that to which you trust non-black people will, as you have correctly inferred, contribute to a long term reduction in crime, and specifically crime committed by black people. Exactly wrong. Turn it around. Black America needs to learn some means of trusting the rest of America. They will never get there as long as dipshits keep preaching that there is so much more that the rest of America needs to do to make them feel more welcome. They are already so deeply part of our identity that no outside force could find the seam. Slavery, Jazz, Civil War, MLK, Ferguson; this is my history too, not just theirs. Africans have been on this continent as long as Europeans. They have fought for the US in every war. MLK fought for equality and Obama has proven that there is no ceiling. There is one last gift that must be given, and that is trust. Trust that as an American you are not born into a race, or a class, or a profession. Trust that other Americans will see you for what you are - a fellow American. Trust is a huge thing to ask when the perception is that no trust is offered. But that _is_ the hump, and if African-Americans can’t find a way to become Americans than there is nothing anyone else can do to make it so. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2014, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-be-racist/695781/106 "2014-08-24T00:11:40Z")
> [@nachtmusick](#): > > if African-Americans can’t find a way to become Americans than there is nothing anyone else can do to make it so. You almost had me. Until the “Blacks are not American” part. Really? They’re…what? Just not trying hard enough? Too stupid or lazy to just trust the White Man? ---
**Author:** ![nachtmusick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ac91a4/32.png) [@nachtmusick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nachtmusick)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2014, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-be-racist/695781/107 "2014-08-24T00:43:09Z")
Emphasis on “American” rather than “African-American”. ---
**Author:** ![nachtmusick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ac91a4/32.png) [@nachtmusick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nachtmusick)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2014, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-be-racist/695781/108 "2014-08-24T00:58:31Z")
> [@andros](#): > > You almost had me. Until the “Blacks are not American” part. > > Really? They’re…what? Just not trying hard enough? Too stupid or lazy to just trust the White Man? Maybe a little more clarity is needed. My point was that blacks are as American as anyone else, and I wish they would realize that. I see how it could be read the way you interpreted it. Thanks for the head’s-up ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2014, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-be-racist/695781/109 "2014-08-24T01:02:28Z")
> [@nachtmusick](#): > > My point was that blacks are as American as anyone else, and I wish they would realize that. Still sounds pretty bad. Generally, when you make blanket statements about a race/religion/ethnic group, especially a negative statement like they don’t realize they really are Americans, it’s going to sound pretty bad. And it should. Blanket, negative statements about a race are racist. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2014, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-be-racist/695781/110 "2014-08-24T01:41:44Z")
> [@nachtmusick](#): > > Maybe a little more clarity is needed. > > My point was that blacks are as American as anyone else, and I wish they would realize that. They seem to be as American as anyone else as long as they do not try to drive through certain areas of various cities. They seem to be as American as anyone else until they see that laws are tailored to treat their crimes in a way that is disproportionate to ways in which white folks’ crimes are treated. Why should they believe that they are just as American as anyone else if they are often going to be treated differently that other Americans? ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2014, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-be-racist/695781/111 "2014-08-24T02:23:22Z")
> [@nachtmusick](#): > > Exactly wrong. Turn it around. Black America needs to learn some means of trusting the rest of America. They will never get there as long as dipshits keep preaching that there is so much more that the rest of America needs to do to make them feel more welcome. They are already so deeply part of our identity that no outside force could find the seam. Slavery, Jazz, Civil War, MLK, Ferguson; this is my history too, not just theirs. > > Africans have been on this continent as long as Europeans. They have fought for the US in every war. MLK fought for equality and Obama has proven that there is no ceiling. There is one last gift that must be given, and that is trust. Trust that as an American you are not born into a race, or a class, or a profession. Trust that other Americans will see you for what you are - a fellow American. > > Trust is a huge thing to ask when the perception is that no trust is offered. But that _is_ the hump, and if African-Americans can’t find a way to become Americans than there is nothing anyone else can do to make it so. I’m unclear how white Americans trusting black Americans and treating them equally with non-blacks would impede progress in this area. Again, if for some reason a black person wants to ask my advice on what they can do to reduce crime, promote equality and end racism, I’ll do my best to offer cogent and helpful suggestions. The OP is asking whether HE should trust black people and treat them equally. I say that he should. Do you disagree? ---
**Author:** ![nachtmusick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ac91a4/32.png) [@nachtmusick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nachtmusick)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2014, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-be-racist/695781/112 "2014-08-24T02:40:21Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Still sounds pretty bad. Generally, when you make blanket statements about a race/religion/ethnic group, especially a negative statement like they don’t realize they really are Americans, it’s going to sound pretty bad. > > And it should. Blanket, negative statements about a race are racist. It was a mostly positive statement that also included my personal opinion about where I disagree with the main thrust of a particular African-American position on race relations in the US as expressed by African American leaders, the media, and progressives such as yourself, as I perceive that position. My point was that I believe that African-Americans, _as a group_ perceive themselves as victimized by US institutions in general, and by law enforcement in particular. I also believe that they feel the underlying reason for this victimization is racism. Many non-blacks share these views. I believe that if, _as a group_, they were to place less emphasis on themselves as a distinct subset of American citizens, and more emphasis on themselves as individual American citizens, than there would be a greater probability of more favorable outcomes for both the group and the individuals comprising that group in American society. This is not a statement of fact, it is merely an opinion set forth by a dude on the internet. I don’t define any single part of my statement as racism. If it is, the term has lost relevance, because I don’t see how any constructive dialogue could ever be conducted within the narrow bounds you’ve defined for non-racists. ---
**Author:** ![nachtmusick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ac91a4/32.png) [@nachtmusick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nachtmusick)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2014, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-be-racist/695781/113 "2014-08-24T02:46:12Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > I’m unclear how white Americans trusting black Americans and treating them equally with non-blacks would impede progress in this area. Again, if for some reason a black person wants to ask my advice on what they can do to reduce crime, promote equality and end racism, I’ll do my best to offer cogent and helpful suggestions. The OP is asking whether HE should trust black people and treat them equally. I say that he should. Do you disagree? Nope, so not exactly wrong. In fact there is much that everybody could do. My opinion is just that the emphasis should be placed on the opposite group. Not going to be a popular opinion, I’m guessing. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2014, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-be-racist/695781/114 "2014-08-24T02:51:49Z")
> [@nachtmusick](#): > > Nope, so not exactly wrong. In fact there is much that everybody could do. My opinion is just that the emphasis should be placed on the opposite group. Not going to be a popular opinion, I’m guessing. It seems to me that the emphasis has generally been on “the opposite group” (black people). Throughout American history, ‘blackness’ was defined by society at large, and often by those in power, as something different, somehow, than what was normal. And it seems to me that this emphasis has usually been quite negative. Only in the last few decades has the idea sunk in beyond a small minority (and it still probably is in the minority in the country at large) that the disparate outcomes and challenges that black people face have been largely due to the policies and practices of white-led society at large. ---
**Author:** ![nachtmusick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ac91a4/32.png) [@nachtmusick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nachtmusick)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2014, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-be-racist/695781/115 "2014-08-24T03:03:54Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It seems to me that the emphasis has generally been on “the opposite group” (black people). Throughout American history, ‘blackness’ was defined by society at large, and often by those in power, as something different, somehow, than what was normal. And it seems to me that this emphasis has usually been quite negative. Only in the last few decades has the idea sunk in beyond a small minority (and it still probably is in the minority in the country at large) that the disparate outcomes and challenges that black people face have been largely due to the policies and practices of white-led society at large. I would only disagree with the term “small minority”, but maybe I’m biased by having lived my whole life in a region where these divisions are less prominent than elsewhere. I spent a week visiting relatives last summer in an area where racism was rampant. I honestly never realized it could be so blatant. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2014, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-be-racist/695781/116 "2014-08-24T03:29:43Z")
> [@nachtmusick](#): > > Nope, so not exactly wrong. In fact there is much that everybody could do. My opinion is just that the emphasis should be placed on the opposite group. Not going to be a popular opinion, I’m guessing. So start your own thread. The OP isn’t asking who is to blame for racism or what various groups could do about it. He’s asking whether he should be racist. I said no, and you said I was completely wrong. I’m glad you withdrew that statement, but I don’t really think the rest of your opinions are relevant to this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2014, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-be-racist/695781/117 "2014-08-24T04:30:50Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > There is none so they call you a racist. Actually I have plenty of responses, pal. > [@jtgain](#): > > But what people do say is that if you grab onto your wallet a little tighter when passing a black person instead of a white person then you are Racist and Bad. What is the counter argument to the position that the person is being rational by doing so? 1. Well the obvious one is the benefits of doing so on any particular encounter are _de minimus_, while the costs involve possible rudeness. If your actions in fact are invisible, that might be a different matter. 2. If you think racial profiling will keep you safer as an individual than situational awareness then it seems to me that you are, “Betraying a greater interest in maintaining your worldview than in maintaining your safety.” Look if someone looks like they’re ready to hassle you, evasive maneuvers are acceptable. Maintaining a path of escape, especially when it is dark, is common sense. Same for protecting your personal space. I’m all for smart self defense; it’s stupid shit that I oppose. 3. Ta Nehisi Coates has a few words to say about the subject: [It's the Racism, Stupid - The Atlantic](http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/07/its-the-racism-stupid/278026/) [INDENT]Let us be direct – in any other context we would automatically recognize this “talk” as stupid advice. If I were to tell you that I only employ Asian-Americans to do my taxes because “Asian-Americans do better on the Math SAT,” you would not simply question my sensitivity, but my mental faculties. That is because you would understand that in making an individual decision, employing an ancestral class of millions is not very intelligent. Moreover, were I to tell you I wanted my son to marry a Jewish woman because “Jews are really successful,” you would understand that statement for the stupidity which it is. It would not be acceptable for me to make such suggestions (to say nothing of policy) in an enlightened society – not simply because they are “impolite” but because they betray a rote, incurious and addled intellect. There is no difference between my argument above and the notion that black boys should be avoided because they are overrepresented in the violent crime stats. But one of the effects of racism is its tendency to justify stupidity. [/INDENT] ---
**Author:** ![AtomicDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@AtomicDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AtomicDog)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2014, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-be-racist/695781/118 "2014-08-24T05:12:43Z")
> [@LonghornDave](#): > > Well, being disrespectful to someone you think has a high likelihood of murdering you doesn’t seem very smart. [Morgan Freeman] Good luck with that. [/Morgan Freeman] ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2014, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-be-racist/695781/119 "2014-08-24T05:28:34Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > 1. Ta Nehisi Coates has a few words to say about the subject: [It's the Racism, Stupid - The Atlantic](http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/07/its-the-racism-stupid/278026/) > [INDENT]Let us be direct – in any other context we would automatically recognize this “talk” as stupid advice. If I were to tell you that I only employ Asian-Americans to do my taxes because “Asian-Americans do better on the Math SAT,” you would not simply question my sensitivity, but my mental faculties. That is because you would understand that in making an individual decision, employing an ancestral class of millions is not very intelligent. Moreover, were I to tell you I wanted my son to marry a Jewish woman because “Jews are really successful,” you would understand that statement for the stupidity which it is. > > It would not be acceptable for me to make such suggestions (to say nothing of policy) in an enlightened society – not simply because they are “impolite” but because they betray a rote, incurious and addled intellect. There is no difference between my argument above and the notion that black boys should be avoided because they are overrepresented in the violent crime stats. But one of the effects of racism is its tendency to justify stupidity. [/INDENT] Unfortunately, I think that’s a spurious argument. When you’re hiring someone to do your taxes, you (a) are never in any danger of being the victim of a violent crime, and (b) have time to stop and interview that person and see whether they’re knowledgeable about taxes, good at math, etc. Furthermore, if you decide you’re not going to let your daughter date non-Jews, then you’re actively doing her harm by severely restricting her potential romantic partners. If you see someone and are deciding whether to cross the street to avoid them, (a) you have no real way to evaluate them fairly, so that your real evaluation can replace the snap judgment, (b) you ARE risking violent crime if you’re wrong, and (c) all that you’re giving up is that you have to cross the street and back. I’m not saying it’s OK to cross the street in that situation (nor am I saying it’s NOT), but that analogy is a bad one. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2014, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-be-racist/695781/120 "2014-08-24T05:55:06Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > I’m not saying it’s OK to cross the street in that situation (nor am I saying it’s NOT), but that analogy is a bad one. I agree the risk assessment is a little different, but I think the analogy is a good one. The claim that this is a life or death situation is more than a little overwrought, but regardless it doesn’t affect the analogy. Which is to say that applying murder rates of blacks vs. white perps to a random guy you see on the street is retarded. Even noting that 84% of whites murdered are murdered by other whites (for most homicide is [intra-racial](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States)) shouldn’t make me gravitate towards that nice Asian or black man. Drawing conclusions based the behavior of a tiny fraction of a population’s behavior with regards to the larger population’s behavior is nutty. The US has an elevated murder rate relative to the OECD, but it’s along the lines of 5 out of 100,000: extrapolation on the basis of that is eyerolling. No, you look at other factors. Some involve getting out of Dodge when you sense trouble, rather than gawking. Others involve specific knowledge of the neighborhood in question, or perhaps the places where you don’t have a clear and wide line of sight around you (think about certain subway exits). And sure suspicious activity or even loitering merits alertness, though in most cases that may be harmless. Most cases might be 99% in such a context, but it isn’t 99.9999%. Orders of magnitude matter. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-be-racist/695781.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-be-racist/695781.md?page=7)