# Convince me not to convert to Islam. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 7, 2008, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133 "2008-12-07T15:14:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![BrandonR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@BrandonR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrandonR)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2008, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/221 "2008-12-09T23:57:37Z")
You’re free to believe what you want to believe, but I personally only found happiness after becoming an atheist and not having to deal with the various burdens of any religion. It’s a profoundly positive experience when you don’t have to worry about offending a nonexistent deity. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/222 "2008-12-10T00:01:12Z")
> [@blinkthrice](#): > > I dont consider the Qur’aan to be something comparable to literature, I believe it to be the speech of God. Then there’s probably nothing anyone can write to change your mind. But maybe you can amuse me and respond to my earlier post anyway. > [@](#): > > Evidence that Allah is cruel and unjust is clear cut. Those who think rationally and don’t accept that Islam was actually brought down through an angel are doomed to an eternity of hell fire. How do you reconcile that punishment with Allah being beneficent and merciful? Do you believe that punishment fits the “crime” of non-belief? ---
**Author:** ![blinkthrice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ba8739/32.png) [@blinkthrice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blinkthrice)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/223 "2008-12-10T00:16:56Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > If God doesn’t reside anywhere than God is nowhere! > > If God is a being then God would need a place. Unless God is also place. > > It seems that no one really can decribe or know God, or anything about God except in their own minds, The Qur’aan is written by a human who’s ideas of God were written down and some believe him and some don’t, just like any other writings or statements. You choose to believe Muhammad and that is your right, if it helps you to be a better person and to the betterment of all existence than fine, that works for you, but it does not work for millions of others, and we should respect the right of others to have their beliefs as well as our selves, as they are just beliefs not facts. > > We share a world together and for the sake of all on earth we should be willing to allow each person to have their own beliefs as long as their beliefs do not harm others or put another person down as less because we do not agree on how one worships a God or not. > > Monavis If man doesn’t reside anywhere, then he is nowhere, but I wouldn’t apply those conditions to God, because God is not man, and man is not God. Allah is Al-Wahid - The Unique. Allah describes himself in the Qur’aan: _“Say! He is Allah, the One! The Eternally Besought of all! He does not beget, nor is He begotten. And there is nothing comparable to Him.”_ Surah 112 Therefore, any instance where we try to apply the limitations of man to God, and try to understand him such, we mislead ourselves. I wholeheartedly agree that everybody has the right to believe in whatever they want to, and I never stated otherwise. Allah addresses this matter as well: _Say: O disbelievers! I worship not that which ye worship; Nor worship ye that which I worship. And I shall not worship that which ye worship. Nor will ye worship that which I worship. Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion._ Surah 109 As long as there are muslims, there will be non-muslims. That’s just the way it is. ---
**Author:** ![blinkthrice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ba8739/32.png) [@blinkthrice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blinkthrice)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/224 "2008-12-10T00:36:35Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Then there’s probably nothing anyone can write to change your mind. But maybe you can amuse me and respond to my earlier post anyway. It isn’t my position or anybody elses to dictate who will enter the Garden or the Fire, that is the sole authority of Allah. I believe in Allah and who He says He is in His book, and if He says He is All-Just and All-Merciful, then I have faith that He will never oppress His creation and give everyone their just due. That is the point of Iman. You may think that the punishment of someone with Hellfire for not believing in God/Allah is cruel and unjust, but have you ever thought of the flipside of that equation? In order to enter the Garden and benefit from His infinite Grace and Blessings, all Allah is asking from you is to believe in Him as your Lord and Creator - because Allah promised mankind that he would never eternally punish someone with the Fire if they believed in him with sincerity, no matter how many sins they may have accumulated throughout their life in this world. Even if they had to sit in the fire for a million years, if that sinner had an atoms worth of belief in his creator inside of him, he or she would eventually be with their Lord, because that is what has been promised to them. Now what about yourself? If someone wiped out your entire family by murdering them in cold-blood, could you ever find it in your heart to have mercy on them, even if they sincerely repented to you and acknowledged their faults? Probably not, and that, in a nutshell, is the difference between the mercy of man, and the Mercy of Allah. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/225 "2008-12-10T00:44:52Z")
> [@blinkthrice](#): > > Now what about yourself? If someone wiped out your entire family by murdering them in cold-blood, could you ever find it in your heart to have mercy on them, even if they sincerely repented to you and acknowledged their faults? Probably not, and that, in a nutshell, is the difference between the mercy of man, and the Mercy of Allah. Whoa, whoa, whoa! I haven’t done anything so extreme to Allah! I’ve just refused to acknowlege him as my lord. If someone refuses to acknowlege ME as his lord, I’ll let him live out his life unmolested. I won’t make him burn in hellfire for even ten seconds, let alone a million years. Every man has a right to rule himself in my book. None of this bowing down to someone else. So clearly I’m far more merciful than Allah. From what you describe he seems like a pretty mean, vindictive dude. A million years of suffering for not submitting to his authority! That’s some stone cold shit right there. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/226 "2008-12-10T00:52:11Z")
> [@blinkthrice](#): > > all Allah is asking from you is to believe in Him as your Lord and Creator You don’t see the circular problem here? How can I oblige a being with His request if I first haven’t been convinced He exists? If I come to the conclusion that there isn’t enough evidence for belief, can I force myself to believe? Should I force myself to believe if it were possible? How could a just God possibly punish someone so brutally for not coming to a conclusion and be just and merciful? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/227 "2008-12-10T00:54:25Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > How could a just God possibly punish someone so brutally for not coming to a conclusion and be just and merciful? By his own admission Allah is not a just and merciful God. Therefore he is not worthy of worship. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/228 "2008-12-10T01:58:37Z")
> [@Pochacco](#): > > The whole point of this message board is fighting ignorance. It’s NOT about mindlessly validating people’s beliefs. > > Where do you draw the line on civility? Is it just religion that’s immune from criticism? New age beliefs? Conspiricy theories? Taken to the logical extreme your position precludes us calling bullshit on anything. How exactly do you propose we fight ignorance if we are not allowed to poke holes in unsupported hypotheses? Nothing at all wrong with criticizing religious beliefs. Happens around here all the time. The problem I see is in this statement > [@](#): > > But … garbage in, garbage out. If you start with incorrect premises, you’ll be often be lead to incorrect conclusions. If God doesn’t exist then basing your morality on the mistaken impression that he does is a dangerous proposition. We’ve all heard the traditional arguments about the crusades and Islamic terrorists. IMO what we see is a race in the process of growth. Religion has overwhelmingly dominated the largest percentage of mankind for many generations. Still, with all that garbage, mankind has grown and our moral system has improved. Is that the garbage out? > [@](#): > > I will absolutely acknowledge the role that traditional Christianity played in forming my moral conscience. I will also absolutely acknowledge the role that alchemy played in paving the way for modern chemistry. But if someone starts posting here about their quest for the Philospher’s Stone, I’ll also point out that they’re pursuing a fantasy. I’d agree that for the sake of human growth Religion does need to be challenged and beliefs examined within the parameters of what facts we have. I think that’s a positive thing. The reality is that certain questions remain unanswered the main one being. Does God exist in some form? Or , does God belief still serve a useful purpose for mankind? I doubt there’s an obvious easy answer. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/229 "2008-12-10T02:06:04Z")
I wouldn’t call it trolling, but discussions of angels and pinheads always struck me as kinda pointless, as any attempt to reconcile religious fantasy with prosaic reality. If religion is kept purely in the philosphical sphere, debating big-issue questions like the meaning of life and whatnot, I’ve no problem with it. It’s when it starts sneaking into issues of science and law that I get uneasy. ---
**Author:** ![Plan\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Plan\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plan_B)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/230 "2008-12-10T02:56:25Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What is your point? It was a response to post #98 ---
**Author:** ![Plan\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Plan\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plan_B)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/231 "2008-12-10T03:01:59Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Re:Mark Steyn - I have a hard time taking anyone who pushes that “Eurabia” nonsense seriously. Well that would be an ad hominum argument, so not all that convincing. Perhaps you could take a moment to point out why it’s nonsense, or cite someplace in _America Alone_ where he’s lying or even mistaken. And it’s not Mark Steyn’s reputation that matters. He makes a pretty good case, with lots of statistics, that majority Muslim governments are not democratic and suck in general. If you can point out where the stats are wrong I’d be interested. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/232 "2008-12-10T03:48:46Z")
> [@blinkthrice](#): > > It isn’t my position or anybody elses to dictate who will enter the Garden or the Fire, that is the sole authority of Allah. I believe in Allah and who He says He is in His book, and if He says He is All-Just and All-Merciful, then I have faith that He will never oppress His creation and give everyone their just due. That is the point of Iman. > > You may think that the punishment of someone with Hellfire for not believing in God/Allah is cruel and unjust, but have you ever thought of the flipside of that equation? In order to enter the Garden and benefit from His infinite Grace and Blessings, all Allah is asking from you is to believe in Him as your Lord and Creator - because Allah promised mankind that he would never eternally punish someone with the Fire if they believed in him with sincerity, no matter how many sins they may have accumulated throughout their life in this world. Even if they had to sit in the fire for a million years, if that sinner had an atoms worth of belief in his creator inside of him, he or she would eventually be with their Lord, because that is what has been promised to them. > [@1984](#): > > ‘Again,’ said O’Brien. > > The pain flowed into Winston’s body. The needle must be at seventy, seventy-five. He had shut his eyes this time. He knew that the fingers were still there, and still four. All that mattered was somehow to stay alive until the spasm was over. He had ceased to notice whether he was crying out or not. The pain lessened again. He opened his eyes. O’Brien had drawn back the lever. > > ‘How many fingers, Winston?’ > > ‘Four. I suppose there are four. I would see five if I could. I am trying to see five.’ > > ‘Which do you wish: to persuade me that you see five, or really to see them?’ > > ‘Really to see them.’ > > ‘Again,’ said O’Brien. > [@](#): > > Now what about yourself? If someone wiped out your entire family by murdering them in cold-blood, could you ever find it in your heart to have mercy on them, even if they sincerely repented to you and acknowledged their faults? Probably not, and that, in a nutshell, is the difference between the mercy of man, and the Mercy of Allah. If Allah was truly merciful, he would not punish people for disbelief. Forgiving all atrocities as long as you worship him just means he is self-centered. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/233 "2008-12-10T04:51:31Z")
> [@Plan\_B](#): > > Well that would be an ad hominum argument, so not all that convincing. Indeed it was. My humble opinion on the fellow, probably inappropriate of me to bother intejecting, since I really have no interest in debating the matter. I’ve done the arguments over the relative merits or lack thereof of Islam in one fashion or another on this board enough times in past years that I’ve long since lost interest in continuing to do so ( though never say never, I guess ). But then I’m not always as rigorous about resisting the temptation to state opinions in GD as perhaps I should be. Character flaw, I’m sure. I was mostly bemused by this thread, which as phrased by the OP seemed just a little disingenuous to me, as I stated. But I will remove myself from it with my apologies for the disruption. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/234 "2008-12-10T04:56:58Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > But then I’m not always as rigorous about resisting the temptation to state opinions in GD as perhaps I should be. Character flaw, I’m sure. I don’t think so. You generally display an exemplary self-restraint when it comes to expressing your opinions (as opposed to discussing factual matters). ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/235 "2008-12-10T04:57:03Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I wouldn’t call it trolling, but discussions of angels and pinheads always struck me as kinda pointless, as any attempt to reconcile religious fantasy with prosaic reality. If religion is kept purely in the philosphical sphere, debating big-issue questions like the meaning of life and whatnot, I’ve no problem with it. It’s when it starts sneaking into issues of science and law that I get uneasy. First, the question was "_how many angels can dance on the point of a needle?"_, not on the head, (and, apparently, not on a pin). Second, it was never a serious issue. It was a joke lampooning philosophical, (not theological), thought games that happened to rely on a concept taken from religion. [The Master speaks](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1008/did-medieval-scholars-argue-over-how-many-angels-could-dance-on-the-head-of-a-pin). ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/236 "2008-12-10T05:41:53Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > First, the question was "_how many angels can dance on the point of a needle?"_, not on the head, (and, apparently, not on a pin). I know, but the “head” version has become more familiar and what difference does it make, anyway? > [@](#): > > Second, it was never a serious issue. It was a joke lampooning philosophical, (not theological), thought games that happened to rely on a concept taken from religion. [The Master speaks](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1008/did-medieval-scholars-argue-over-how-many-angels-could-dance-on-the-head-of-a-pin). This particular discussion may have had a satirical origin, but it’s not really any different than any speculation on what the physical nature of God might be, or how God interacts with or brings about physical changes to the universe, or how the afterlife “works”. It’s easy enough to simply cast God as an intensely personal thing that exists solely within the soul of each individual, etc. as at least one Doper has done repeatedly. It gets a little more complicated when any attempt is made to increase God’s reality. ---
**Author:** ![spinky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@spinky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spinky)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/237 "2008-12-10T07:36:00Z")
**blinkthrice** , how do you feel about the apostasy issue? In reading up on it, it struck me pretty hard as an obvious disincentive to converting to Islam: you can’t convert back. Sure, not every former Muslim gets judged apostate, and every apostate doesn’t get beheaded. But as I understand it, whether it’s enforced by an Islamic state, righteous neighbors, or not at all, it is a Muslim belief that _death is the appropriate punishment for apostasy_. I’d have a hard time buying into this for two reasons: 1) thinking of my own ass, and 2) it doesn’t seem right. In fact, [the wikipedia page on apostasy in Islam](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#Justifications_for_the_death_penalty) cites discouraging those who aren’t truly commited as part of the justification of the death penalty for apostasy. There seems to be an attitude of “you practice your religion, and I’ll practice mine, but if you start practicing mine and then renounce it, I’m not going to be so tolerant.” ---
**Author:** ![spinky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@spinky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spinky)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/238 "2008-12-10T07:42:50Z")
Just barely missed the edit window, but I should add that I know this isn’t a universal Muslim belief, but it is a common enough one that people do get killed for it, whereas (for example) Christians face no real danger of being stoned to death for working on Sunday. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Sable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Martin\_Sable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Sable)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/239 "2008-12-10T08:11:55Z")
> [@blinkthrice](#): > > any instance where we try to apply the limitations of man to God, and try to understand him such, we mislead ourselves. Okay, let’s say there is a Source of Everything, and call it “God.” I agree that such an entity would be no more understandable to us than calculus is to an ameoba. Our brains just aren’t capable of understanding such a thing, though we try. I always want to ask, WHERE was this Source when it decided to create the universe? What environment did it exist in? How long did it exist before creating our universe? Either this Source lived in some sort of incomprehensible hyper-dimensional setting (in which case, where that THAT come from?) of which our universe is a small offshoot. Or the Source just “always was,” somehow, in which case we’re talking about a thing so interwoven with the fabric of everything that it’s closer to being something like, say, electromagnetism than it is to being the person-type god depicted in books like the Koran or the Book of Mormon. I just can’t believe that the priority of such an incredibly complex “Source” is to keep women in scarves and long-sleeves at all times, regardless of how hot the weather is or what sport or activity they’re engaged in, while men are free to wear pretty much whatever is practical or convenient. I can’t believe such a Source wants people to line up in rows and stick their butts in the air five times a day. That all just seems too silly for words. I can’t believe that such a Source would need something as clumsy as a book communicate, much less a book as repetitive and poorly structured as the Koran. If it’s important for you to believe in one God, then why not just believe that there’s one God, and that books like the Koran and Book of Mormon and Bible are the naturally flawed human attempts to understand what we can’t understand? Why saddle yourself with the sexist and tribal baggage that any one specific faith may have picked up over the centuries? ---
**Author:** ![BrandonR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@BrandonR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrandonR)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2008, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/240 "2008-12-10T12:53:33Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Nothing at all wrong with criticizing religious beliefs. Happens around here all the time. The problem I see is in this statement > We’ve all heard the traditional arguments about the crusades and Islamic terrorists. IMO what we see is a race in the process of growth. Religion has overwhelmingly dominated the largest percentage of mankind for many generations. Still, with all that garbage, mankind has grown and our moral system has improved. Is that the garbage out? Well of course mankind is going to grow in knowledge and advance throughout the ages, religion or not. The question is, is religion making the world a better place? Look at virtually every problem in the Middle East, and what the problems stem from (religion). Look at how religion has halted scientific advancement throughout the years. We still have a ridiculous amount of people in this world who thinks evolution is a farce, all due to their silly religious beliefs somehow invalidating modern science (the same science they accept for medicine and technology, but refuse to believe when it comes to biology). The hypothetical is, how would the world be without religion? Would we be even better? I tend to think so, because when you’re not hating on homosexuals or hating on people of differing beliefs etc., you tend to get a lot more productive shit done. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133.md?page=13)