# Convince me not to convert to Islam. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 7, 2008, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133 "2008-12-07T15:14:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Stan\_Shmenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Stan\_Shmenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stan_Shmenge)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/281 "2008-12-14T09:44:23Z")
I also don’t understand the issue. This is about a faith, is it not? If you believe it, then what can I say? If you don’t, then why are you asking? This isn’t like joining the Columbia Record Club here… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/282 "2008-12-14T12:06:40Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > And by the way, it’s not mandatory if I’m not mistaken. I’ve had muslim classmates and co-workers, some quite devout, and they sure didn’t roll out their prayer mats in the middle of Geography 101. > . It’s one of the five pillars of Islam, hence pretty much mandatory with various circumstances-related exemptions (illness, travel, etc..). Doesn’t mean that all muslims do pray five times a day. It might be pretty rare for muslims living in western countries if my experience is in any way representative. I don’t know if there are any kind of exemptions for social constraints such as attending a class. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/283 "2008-12-14T13:13:15Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > I am not a Muslim, but in their defense:If the Koran as you understand it, Allah demands that his ‘slaves’ bow down to him 7 times a day, then the 10 commandments are your God’s way of having His slaves bow down to Him. The Law (including the 10 Com.) was, just like the Koran, enacted through angels, God just acted as a mediator, in many ways the Jew’s were under the same curse as the Muslims, but without the promise God gave to the Jews. The 10 commandments still exist, they have no sting, no enforcement for those under Christ:; [QUOTE= Colossians 2:14] having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. [/QUOTE] So we are no longer slaves: [QUOTE=John 15:15] "No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. [/QUOTE] So yes those under the Law are still slaves, people under grace are freed from that. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/284 "2008-12-14T13:49:50Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The Law (including the 10 Com.) was, just like the Koran, enacted through angels, God just acted as a mediator, in many ways the Jew’s were under the same curse as the Muslims, but without the promise God gave to the Jews. The 10 commandments still exist, they have no sting, no enforcement for those under Christ:; > So we are no longer slaves: > > So yes those under the Law are still slaves, people under grace are freed from that. If the Koran is enacted by Angels then the Koran is as much the word of God as the Bible. As I understand the Bible the Commandments were given By God to Moses(Who by the way Historians can find no Moses), so that would tell one something. And if Moses were a Historical person he could be just making up stuff to help people get along with each other. He (in those days could say God wrote on a tablet and people were uneducated so they would take his word for it. Like Moses saying God showed him His back side. When one considers the crime and the cost to all people the last 7 commandments are just common sense. If I do not steal from you and you do not steal from me etc. it will be a better world and Buddah’s 500 B.C. Golden rule"Do unto others as you want others to do unto you" Monavis ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/285 "2008-12-14T16:00:17Z")
> [@BrandonR](#): > > Charitable acts here and there do not, in any way, make up for the atrocities that have been committed solely in the name of religion over the years. For anyone who thinks religion has had a net positive benefit on the world, I suggest perusing through [this wonderful book](http://www.amazon.com/God-Not-Great-Religion-Everything/dp/0446579807/). Here and there? Well there’s a non biased assessment. As I said, mankind’s population has been religious by a huge margin. Still, with all that horrible prejudice and blind faith and atrocities galore a predominantly religious mankind has manged to grow and progress. A little common sense tells me that’s a net positive. You and Chris are welcome to your opinions but until you find some reasonable way to gauge the positive or negative effect of religion that’s all you got. ---
**Author:** ![CalD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7feea3/32.png) [@CalD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalD)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/286 "2008-12-14T18:08:53Z")
> [@blinkthrice](#): > > Isn’t treason a capital crime here in the United States? Why do Muslims so often defend their apostacy laws by comparing it to treason? They are not even close to being the same thing. If you want to compare apostacy with a state-based example, you’d compare it to canceling your citizenship of some country, not treason. Mentioning treason when defending apostacy is nothing but an attempted red herring. They are two totally different things. As for scientific inaccuracies in the Koran, how about this one: Surah 18:86 > [@](#): > > Until, when he reached THE SETTING OF THE SUN, he found IT SET IN a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: “O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness”… Until, when he came to the rising of the sun, he found IT RISING on a people for whom We had provided no covering protection against the sun Of course, the standard Muslim response is that the verse is saying the sun only “appeared” to set in a spring of murky water, as any typical ocean sunset “appears” to be doing. But oops.. that’s not how the early Muslim scholars (native speakers of classical Arabic) interpreted the verse. You can read **Muhammad ibn Jarir al-Tabari’s** _tafsir_ (Koranic interpretation) on the verse [here](http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Science/sun_set.html). He thought the sun was _literally_ setting in to a murky spring, based on this verse from the Qu’ran. Given that the Koran contains a certifiable falsehood, why would you believe it to contain the words of an inerrant God, **blinkthrice**? ---
**Author:** ![Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gala_Matrix_Fire)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/287 "2008-12-14T20:29:40Z")
Religion and nationhood are totally, completely different? Tell the Jews. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2008, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/288 "2008-12-14T21:32:31Z")
> [@blinkthrice](#): > > I considered catholicism/christianity to be more of a rational religion than hinduism, but I still couldn’t get over how Jesus was always portrayed as a white man, white angels all over the place, white Mary’s, white popes - especially since most of kids I was going to school with were black, hispanic, or at least as brown as I was. Plus, the whole trinity concept didn’t make a bit of sense to me. Well, Jesus was an Arab jew and probably beardless, so the European depictions are exactly that - depictions. The trinity isn’t that complicated actually. a. Judism and Christianity are monotheistic. b. Jesus is divine. A number of Christian sects concluded that Jesus was God at that point – but that would deny his humanity. These sects were crushed. The trinity - where there are 3 aspects to one God - seems to me like a reasonable compromise. There’s the the Holy Spirit - God as perfection, and there’s the Father and Son which permit a link to us lowly humans. The attendant mysticism surrounding the trinity is a bonus. As it happens, the Unitarians at one time decided to toss the Trinity altogether, so one can actually be Christian without adopting that particular formalism. ---
**Author:** ![Stan\_Shmenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Stan\_Shmenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stan_Shmenge)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/289 "2008-12-15T01:42:20Z")
> [@Ro0sh](#): > > Well, it’s been several days, can we get an update on how you are or are not enjoying your new lifestyle? Shhh. He is deep in prayer in preparation for his Martyrdom Operation! We’ll be hearing from him soon enough. Probably in a pizza parlor in Tel-Aviv. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/290 "2008-12-15T06:42:35Z")
> [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](#): > > Religion and nationhood are totally, completely different? Tell the Jews. First of all, Judaism and Islam are very different - Judaism is a tribal faith, while Islam is a proselytizing religion. Second of all, Jews haven’t executed anyone for apostasy since Biblical times, and even them, we generally left that sort of thing to God. Those who convert to other faiths are often shunned, but they are not killed. > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Well, Jesus was an Arab jew and probably beardless, so the European depictions are exactly that - depictions. A few nitpicks: 1. Jesus was not an “Arab Jew”, as the Arabs of the period were largely confined to Arabia. He was, however, a Middle-Eastern Jew - as were most Jews of the period. 2. The term “Arab Jew” is offensive. You probably didn’t know that. 3. Jews of the period (like Jews of most periods) most certainly wore beards; especially one who would have wanted to be seen as a religious leader. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/291 "2008-12-15T08:15:03Z")
> [@CalD](#): > > Of course, the standard Muslim response is that the verse is saying the sun only “appeared” to set in a spring of murky water, as any typical ocean sunset “appears” to be doing. > > But oops.. that’s not how the early Muslim scholars (native speakers of classical Arabic) interpreted the verse. You can read **Muhammad ibn Jarir al-Tabari’s** _tafsir_ (Koranic interpretation) on the verse [here](http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Science/sun_set.html). > > He thought the sun was _literally_ setting in to a murky spring, based on this verse from the Qu’ran. > > Given that the Koran contains a certifiable falsehood, why would you believe it to contain the words of an inerrant God, **blinkthrice**? Certifiable falsehood ? How so ? It’s quite clearly a poetic image. That some misunderstand a poetic image or take it for fact (whether on good faith or [disingenuously](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1560/whats-the-meaning-of-jesus-teaching-about-the-camel-going-through-the-eye-of-a-needle)) doesn’t turn it into something other than a poetic image, and especially not into a scientific statement. Although I guess you could blame Allah for not writing in lojban, I suppose 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/292 "2008-12-15T08:30:21Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > A few nitpicks: > > 1. Jesus was not an “Arab Jew”, as the Arabs of the period were largely confined to Arabia. He was, however, a Middle-Eastern Jew - as were most Jews of the period. > > 2. The term “Arab Jew” is offensive. You probably didn’t know that. > > 3. Jews of the period (like Jews of most periods) most certainly wore beards; especially one who would have wanted to be seen as a religious leader. On points 1 & 2: Thank you. I understand that the earliest depictions of Jesus are beardless, although there are no direct records regarding how he actually appeared. [Cite](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depiction_of_Jesus). New Testament scholar Dr Mark Goodacre consulted with the BBC some years back regarding [Jesus’ appearance](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/3958241.stm). I see that he was given “reasonably short hair”, a beard and an olive complexion. I stand corrected. ---
**Author:** ![CalD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7feea3/32.png) [@CalD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalD)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/293 "2008-12-15T17:59:50Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Certifiable falsehood ? How so ? It’s quite clearly a poetic image. “Quite clearly” a poetic image? If it is so clearly intended as a poetic image, why did the early tafsirists interpret the verse literally? Remember, they _natively spoke_ classical Arabic (the language of the Koran). They read the verse, and took it literally. They read it as the sun literally sets in to a murky spring. So please explain, what do you mean it is “quite clearly” intended as a poetic image? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/294 "2008-12-15T18:12:53Z")
> [@CalD](#): > > “Quite clearly” a poetic image? > > If it is so clearly intended as a poetic image, why did the early tafsirists interpret the verse literally? Remember, they _natively spoke_ classical Arabic (the language of the Koran). They read the verse, and took it literally. They read it as the sun literally sets in to a murky spring. > > So please explain, what do you mean it is “quite clearly” intended as a poetic image? Ancient people understood metaphor, you know. When Homer wrote “wine-dark sea”, he didn’t mean that the sea was \*actually \*made of wine. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/295 "2008-12-15T18:30:02Z")
> [@CalD](#): > > “Quite clearly” a poetic image? > > If it is so clearly intended as a poetic image, why did the early tafsirists interpret the verse literally? Remember, they _natively spoke_ classical Arabic (the language of the Koran). They read the verse, and took it literally. They read it as the sun literally sets in to a murky spring. > > So please explain, what do you mean it is “quite clearly” intended as a poetic image? _shrug_ How should I know ? I wasn’t there and I wasn’t them. But I’d posit they had the same reasons any people take poetic image or metaphor at face value - because they don’t know any better, or because they’re disingenuous. I didn’t link that camel-through-the-eye-of-a-needle story for naught - it’s also a poetic metaphor, and quite a graphic one at that, yet some people who like its meaning and implications try to finnagle their way out of the teaching by choosing to take it as factual data. Why would Muslims be any different ? Don’t they have the same right to intellectual dishonesty as Christians ? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/296 "2008-12-15T18:35:37Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > 1. The term “Arab Jew” is offensive. You probably didn’t know that. > . Can you elaborate? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/297 "2008-12-15T18:46:38Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > If the Koran is enacted by Angels then the Koran is as much the word of God as the Bible. God allowed the rules that the devil (fallen angel) enacted via the Koran, but that does not make it the Word of God, but the word of Satan. The Word of God was the standard that God requires man to live up to to be worthy of eternal life, something no man can do. It is the Word of God because it is the standard that Jesus Himself had to live up to. Jesus did not have to live up to the rules of the Koran or any other standard of Satan, as He was above that, but He had only one standard to live up to, the standard set by God Himself., enacted through angels through a mediator. > [@](#): > > As I understand the Bible the Commandments were given By God to Moses(Who by the way Historians can find no Moses) Yes, God did give the Commandments to Moses (Historians can look in Exodus, and several other books to find Moses, perhaps you can pass this note to them) > [@](#): > > , so that would tell one something. And if Moses were a Historical person he could be just making up stuff to help people get along with each other. He (in those days could say God wrote on a tablet and people were uneducated so they would take his word for it. Like Moses saying God showed him His back side. Funny how when it comes to things like this the Israelites were just a bunch of uneducated people, in other instances they were highly skilled builders in Egypt, in other instances they were very skilled survivalists to survive in the desert in such a large group, and they were experts in military tactics. Historians will say anything and contradict themselves, no matter how impractical as not to give credit to God. [/quote] When one considers the crime and the cost to all people the last 7 commandments are just common sense. If I do not steal from you and you do not steal from me etc. it will be a better world and Buddah’s 500 B.C. Golden rule"Do unto others as you want others to do unto you" Monavis [/QUOTE] You may say it’s common sense but that’s from our modernday society, would it be comon sense if theift was not though of as bad, even a profession. Re: Buddah, if that saying was common sense why did it require Buddah to reveal it? Is it comman sense to drive on the right side of the road, pass on the left, or does it just seem like it because that’s what we are used to being considered common sense. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/298 "2008-12-15T18:52:14Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Can you elaborate? What’s to elaborate? It’s offensive because people are offended by it. Walk up to a Jew who traces his ancestry to Algeria or Morrocco - there are plenty such in France - call him that, and you’ll see some offense. Jewish communities are classified by country of origin, and not by ethnicity (as all Jews see themselves as being ethnically Jewish). Thus you have Polish Jews, or Iraqi Jews, or Syrian Jews. As there is no country called “Arab”\*, there are no Arab Jews. - Yes, I am aware of the fact that there is a country called Arabia. If Jews were ever allowed to live there, I suppose they would be referred to as “Arabian Jews.” ---
**Author:** ![overlyverbose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/9dc877/32.png) [@overlyverbose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/overlyverbose)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/299 "2008-12-15T18:58:24Z")
I’ve been lurking on this thread for a while - I’d like to hear back from the OP. Did you convert? For what it’s worth, if you must be either Christian, Muslim or Jewish, any one should work. They’re essentially the same, only in different times, somewhat different places and with a twist. I’m betting that more reasonable, clear-thinking Muslims would help manage the distortions of that religion. However, if you’re doing it because you need serenity, would meditating not work as well? Also, why are you asking others to convince you not to do it? Do you have doubts? Are you trying to test yourself already? Or are you testing others? I don’t think any of these options is good. All represent a measure of insecurity about your decision, in my opinion. The older I get, the more I realize I don’t know what the hell I’m talking about, so I’m probably not much help in convincing you one way or the other. I will say, however, that Islam has a very bad rep, and you’ve got a pretty tough road ahead of you unless everyone surrounding you is Muslim as well, which is not a great idea (diversity of thought and all that). Whatever you decide, good luck to you. And I hope you’ll comment more about why you’re questioning your decision. As with any other life-altering decision, it’s smart to do so; however, you should know your motivations for questioning. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2008, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/300 "2008-12-15T19:53:25Z")
Trying to avoid the trainwrecks littering this thread and offer some actual help to the OP… I think I might have some advice based on my experience as an adult convert (to Judaism, but close enough). I start from the premise that all religions (and non-religious philosophies, meditative practices, etc.) offer valuable opportunities for spiritual growth; one may be better than another for a particular person at a particular time, but none has a monopoly on truth. One analogy I like to use is that religion is to spirituality as diet and exercise are to good health; not the goal in itself but a tool to be used to acheive the goal. And of course there are many kinds of exercises one could do, the key is to find one that you enjoy enough to keep at it long enough to reap the benefits. Although it is obviously important to be generally comfortable with the theology of your prospective new religion, it is important to remember that the religious life is not primarily about ideas but about practice, and you should be sure you are comfortable with the practices your religion will require. It sounds as though you are OK with praying multiple times a day and observing dietary laws…I would strongly suggest that you experiment with following these practices for a significant period of time _before_ formally converting. You can’t just convert to Islam (or any other religion), you will be converting to some particular _kind_ of Islam, and before taking the plunge you should find out whether the kind of Islam that speaks to you is actually practiced in your area. So I would also suggest that you start attending services, ideally at a variety of different mosques, and identify a congregation you would like to affiliate with. Hopefully you will be able to discuss your process with the imam there and get guidance on the various transitions you will be making. Seriously consider the implications of your choice; presumably you know that you will be facing a lot of ignorance and bigotry (as you already have in this thread, come to think of it). Consider the implications for your family and other significant relationships; God created you in a particular time and place, as a member of your family and your community, and if following your own personal call will bring hostility and bad feeling into these relationships, ask yourself if that could be what God really wants for you, or if you are in danger of falling into the error of selfishly pursuing your own desires without regard for the consequences. May you be blessed with the wisdom and good fortune to find the right spiritual home for you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133.md?page=16)