# Convince me not to convert to Islam. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 7, 2008, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133 "2008-12-07T15:14:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/341 "2008-12-16T19:41:26Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Maybe some areas are “better off” in many ways BECAUSE that religion actually WORKS better overall? Maybe. But from outside they are pretty interchangeable. The claims from within the religions that they are vastly different from one another is a bit goofy from my perspective. There are a lot of things that seem to go hand-in-hand with being better off. Things like “being male” or “being white.” I don’t acknowledge the inherent superiority of males or whites, either. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/342 "2008-12-16T20:02:58Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > And they aren’t exactly “top of the pops” ethically-speaking either. Compare like to like rather than cherry-picking the countries that make Christianity look best by comparison. I’m not comparing anything, merely questioning your statement that “Christians as a group have got it made”. I think they might not completely agree in Moldova, Zimbabwe, Guatemala or The Philippines. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/343 "2008-12-16T20:13:11Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > However, the point to which you are purportedly responding was not the overall wealth of a nation, but the economics. Saudi Arabia is one of the foremost examples of a (corrupt) plutocracy in the world. In addition, the princes that run it are not particularly devout Muslims (which is how bin Laden got interested in being a rebel–they were not sufficiently devout for his tastes). When we factor in the rest of the MENA region and the relative GDPs found there, we discover that they are not all that wealthy. Even Saudi Arabia is [beaten out by more than 23 countries in the world](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)). > If a country has great wealth, but that is held by a tiny percentage of the population, then it is quite likely that the rest of the impoverished people are going to be more likely to be easily agitated. But absolutely. We agree completely. Saudi Arabia is a piece of shit country. Still doesn’t make it true that Zimbabwe has got it made. I can’t remember the statistics, but a very large part of Christians live in third world nations. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/344 "2008-12-16T20:16:02Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > I’m not comparing anything, merely questioning your statement that “Christians as a group have got it made”. I think they might not completely agree in Moldova, Zimbabwe, Guatemala or The Philippines. Okay then, Christians in the West have got it made. Christians elsewhere don’t, which actually aids my point that it isn’t a difference of religion versus religion. It’s a difference of economics. Where economies are stable and there is opportunity, people are stable. Where economies are not stable or there is no opportunity, people are not stable. That the first category includes a lot of “Christian” countries doesn’t mean that Christianity is somehow more advanced. People of any religion tend to be more settled when there is opportunity. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/345 "2008-12-16T20:46:44Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I don’t think it’s much of a secret that Jews and Arabs don’t really get along these days. Is it so surprising that calling a Mizrachi (Oriental) Jew an Arab would be cause for offense? No, it isn’t particularly surprising but on the other hand, I had no reason to suspect that “Arab Jew” would even be used. And for it to be considered derogatory, it obviously has to be used. If nobody had ever called a black man “nigger” in the USA, using it wouldn’t be derogatory, just surprising. So, I was wondering who used it, against whom and why. It could have had any number of hidden meaning I was unaware of, like for instance, as I mentioned, “Arab lover”. It might be obvious to you, it isn’t for me, who wasn’t even aware of its existence. Once again, if you hadn’t heard the term “nigger”, even if you were aware of the history of segregation in the USA, you would probably ask. How would you know otherwise if it is used for any black person, or refers to a particular subset of this population, if it has purely racial connotations, or rather social or political ones? > [@](#): > > Besides, \*\* it’s not a term Jews, or anyone with any awareness of Jewish culture, ever uses \*\*. Coining new terms to define things that already have a proper definition is often regarded with suspicion - and rightfully so, as it’s rarely done in good faith. (bolding mine). And I happen not to be a Jew or aware of Jewish culture. It never occurred to me to call someone an “Arab Jew” but it never occurred to me that I shouldn’t, either. I would also add that even after your first response to my query, I still didn’t understand that it was a term that no Jew would use. At the contrary, I assumed it was a derogatory term used by Ashkenazis against Sephardic Jews. None of the things you’re explaining was blatantly obvious. Actually, when I think of it, I still don’t understand who uses it. If it’s not Ashkenazi Jews, then who? Who is using derogatory terms targeting specifically what you call “Oriental Jews”? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2008, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/346 "2008-12-16T21:57:36Z")
At what point did I state that it wouldn’t have been said by Ashkenazi Jews? Of course they’re the ones who use it the most, directing against against Mizrachi Jews (which are not, BTW, the same thing as Sephardic Jews). That doesn’t mean that others can get away with saying it, not without being accused of either ignorance or malice. When I said that no Jew would use the term, I meant that no Jew would use the term _except as an insult_. I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/347 "2008-12-17T00:11:36Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > When I said that no Jew would use the term, I meant that no Jew would use the term _except as an insult_. I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear. I could’ve pictured myself using the term “Arab Jew”, if I was trying to describe someone whose ethnicity was Arabic but whose religion was Jewish, as after a conversion and it frankly wouldn’t surprise me if in the polyglot Middle East there were a few likely examples. Of course, I’ve never actually been to the Middle East. ---
**Author:** ![Stan\_Shmenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Stan\_Shmenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stan_Shmenge)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/348 "2008-12-17T01:35:03Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Back off, now. > > All accusations of trolling are forbidden on the SDMB outside of the BBQ Pit. > > The rest of your post, “questioning his piety” is a pretty direct insult, regardless what spin you would disingenuously give it. > > [/Moderating] Sorry, I didn’t realize that about trolling. As far as piety, I would think it was a pretty central issue to the OP’s question. In any case, having reviewed his posts, I am no longer suspecting him of trolling or his piety. He seems sincere. That leaves my question about his living arrangement and his actual belief. Neither issue has received a response, as of now. Like I said, if his faith is weak enough that he can be dissuaded on a board such as this, he should probably give up the idea. If he believes that Mohammad was a prophet, then he has already converted, imho. As far as evidence for Mohammad being the true prophet, God doesn’t seem to be on his side lately. The Arabs have attacked the Israeli’s five times in this century, and each time they were turned back, and lost even more territory. So, at least this century, it is Yahweh 5 - Allah 0. Or maybe Allah, in his wisdom, is sending the Arabs a message that he does not support their actions. ---
**Author:** ![Stan\_Shmenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Stan\_Shmenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stan_Shmenge)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/349 "2008-12-17T01:38:12Z")
Should say “in the last century”. Still have a pre- Y2K mindset. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Stan\_Shmenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Stan\_Shmenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stan_Shmenge)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/350 "2008-12-17T01:57:53Z")
> [@ntucker](#): > > What? That was a direct response to **you** claiming he needed to “get laid” and saying he probably didn’t have any “game” with the ladies. Did you think we didn’t notice that? No, he said that about me. Whether or not I “got game” is irrelevant to whether he should convert, so I ignored the comment. Whether he is having a satisfying life is absolutely germane to his conversion. People who are dissatisfied with their lives are easy prey for these religions. That is what they are looking for: to supply answers to people who are discontented. Their answers. For good or ill. Ill, in my opinion. It does seem to me that some people have a need for religion and some do not. I count myself lucky to be in the latter group. As to what my advice would be to someone in the former situation, I would recommend a study and understanding of all faiths and an avoidance of organized religion. Come to think of it, I would recommend that to atheists as well. Just because someone doesn’t believe in God doesn’t mean that most religions don’t contain some wisdom. As someone else has mentioned, the Baha’i come close to this. I have known quite a few of them. Nice people, but highly ineffectual. But, boy, if you like reading, have they got books for YOU! I would certainly recommend avoiding totalitarian dogmatic faiths such as Islam, Hassidism, Catholicism, Four Square, Jehova’s Witnesses, LDS, Scientology, and surely numerous others. These are just the ones I am familar with and quite certain about. They are all basically cults, in my view. ---
**Author:** ![blinkthrice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ba8739/32.png) [@blinkthrice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blinkthrice)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/351 "2008-12-17T03:09:04Z")
> [@Stan\_Shmenge](#): > > So, are you going to slap a burka on her when you convert? Or let her keep dressing like a western whore? Does she get any say in the matter? Will you let her out of the house without a male relative? Cause all the women I know are so into being downpressed and treated like infants. Also, she is committing adultery, so now it is time to stone her as well. My girl was raised a Christian, but doesn’t consider herself to be one. She hasn’t given any particular religion serious thought, though she keeps a strong faith in who/what she feels “God” is, and that’s how she’s been for quite some time. We talk about God on occasion, and to tell you the truth, we agree more than we disagree. So, am I going to “throw a burka” on her, no, I’m not. It took me a good while to officially accept Islaam, so why would I expect different from someone else? If Islam is the fastest growing religion in the United States and nobody has been “stoned” yet, I don’t think you have anything to worry about partner, you can relax. I highly doubt you “know” many muslim women, let alone many muslims. Where are you from anyway? ---
**Author:** ![blinkthrice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ba8739/32.png) [@blinkthrice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blinkthrice)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/352 "2008-12-17T03:10:42Z")
> [@Stan\_Shmenge](#): > > Oh, and to clarify for **ntucker** , the Koran has whole passages about it is a great idea to kill the infidel, but it isn’t really killing because it is actually Allah doing the murdering. This is the basis for their utterly false claim that they aren’t told to kill in the Koran. Any killing is simply the will of the invisible man in the sky! Remember, the Koran also advises lying to and tricking the unclean unbelievers. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![blinkthrice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ba8739/32.png) [@blinkthrice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blinkthrice)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/353 "2008-12-17T03:28:52Z")
> [@cwthree](#): > > **blinkthrice** , **Stan Shmenge** has a legitimate - if crudely phrased - question in [post 310](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10576500&postcount=310). > > You currently live with your girlfriend. Have you discussed your pending conversion with her? How does she feel about that? How does it fit in with her own beliefs? > > Is this a sexual relationship (I’m assuming that it is)? If you formally convert, how do you plan to accommodate this living arrangement with your new religious obligations? Will you marry, will you live separately (and chastely), or will you separate? > > In short, there is another person in your life and home, and you have an obligation to consider how your actions will affect that person. I’m not saying that you should not convert because you live with your girlfriend. However, you should articulate your expectations ahead of time so that you can both act appropriately. I answered the first part of your question in my other post, but as for sexual relations, I’ll be frank and say that I don’t see that stopping anytime soon, but yes, I do plan on marrying her, and raising our children as muslims, if we are to have any, God-willing. I know a lot of people may have their own conceptions about what Islam is ie; long robes, big beards, veiled women, and ak-47’s, but that’s not how I see it, and definitely not how it should be seen. To “formally convert” to Islam isn’t something drastically elaborate - if you believe in One God, and his Messengers, then you are a Muslim, plain and simple. It is tradition to confess your faith in front of two witnesses, but not obligatory, though recommended. Perhaps I implied otherwise with the semi-provacative thread title (at least for Stan), but being honest, just wanted to incite a discussion. My apologies. Obviously, I wasn’t expecting to be “convinced” by anyone in this thread, but I doubt anybody else did either. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/354 "2008-12-17T07:12:10Z")
It’s make-believe. It never happened. The angel Gabriel never dictated anything to Muhammed. It’s as made up as any other religion, from Judaism to scientology. That, and that alone, is why you shouldn’t convert to Islam or any other religion. ---
**Author:** ![ToeJam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dfb087/32.png) [@ToeJam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ToeJam)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/355 "2008-12-17T07:21:10Z")
So what branch of Islam attracted you the most, **Blinkthrice**? What was so appealing/non-appealing about the other branches? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/356 "2008-12-17T07:56:02Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I could’ve pictured myself using the term “Arab Jew”, if I was trying to describe someone whose ethnicity was Arabic but whose religion was Jewish, as after a conversion and it frankly wouldn’t surprise me if in the polyglot Middle East there were a few likely examples. I suppose you could call an Arab convert to Judaism an “Arab Jew”, if you could find one. However, Arabic-speaking Jews whose ancestors have lived in Arab lands for centuries do \*not \* think of themselves as Arabs, and would be insulted if referred to as such. Especially in the Middle East, Jews are considered an ethnicity at least as much as a religion. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/357 "2008-12-17T08:12:34Z")
> [@blinkthrice](#): > > I do plan on marrying her, and raising our children as muslims, if we are to have any, God-willing. Does _she_ plan on raising your children as muslims? ---
**Author:** ![SomeBodyUK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@SomeBodyUK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SomeBodyUK)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/358 "2008-12-17T09:04:24Z")
> [@](#): > > However, Arabic-speaking Jews whose ancestors have lived in Arab lands for centuries do not think of themselves as Arabs, and would be insulted if referred to as such. Especially in the Middle East, Jews are considered an ethnicity at least as much as a religion. Erm, I’ve met an Iraqi Jew who called himself an Arab. He said his family lived in Iraq for 2500 years… ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/359 "2008-12-17T09:24:39Z")
> [@SomeBodyUK](#): > > Erm, I’ve met an Iraqi Jew who called himself an Arab. I’m sure your have. However, you must conceded that I have most likely been exposed to a much broader cross-section of Middle-Eastern Jews than you have, and while I’m certain there are exceptions (as there are exceptions to everything), the vast majority of them prefer not to be called Arabs. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2008, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/360 "2008-12-17T17:23:49Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I’m sure your have. > > However, you must conceded that I have most likely been exposed to a much broader cross-section of Middle-Eastern Jews than you have, and while I’m certain there are exceptions (as there are exceptions to everything), the vast majority of them prefer not to be called Arabs. That just means the phrase “Arab Jew” might be but is not automatically an insult. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133.md?page=19)