# Convince me not to convert to Islam. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 7, 2008, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133 "2008-12-07T15:14:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![cerberus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cerberus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cerberus)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2008, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/161 "2008-12-09T03:36:35Z")
> [@](#): > > As a 26 year old [former] agnostic born into a family of devout South Indian hindu brahmins who has for the most part attended catholic private schools growing up, briefly flirting with Christianity before considering myself to be a certified “doubter,” I’ve officially come to the conclusion that Islam is the only religion today worth adhering to. I believe in one God who created the Universe and everything in it, I believe in the core message instilled into and advocated by all of his messengers, I believe in his angels, his books, and the day when we will all be judged accordingly. > > Before I make it “official” and declare my faith in front of two witnesses thereby entering the fold of Islam, I thought it would be interesting to see if anybody here could convince me not to, mainly because I’ve lurked this forum quite often over the past few years, and I’ve noticed that there are many here who have very strong opinions on Islam and Muslims, lots of them negative. I’ve also noticed that there aren’t any Muslims who post here that have mounted any kind of defense, and if there are, I’ve missed them. > > So, am I due congratulations, or condolences? **Broad Brush Warning** I’ve seen this before. A person is raised in a religiously ambiguous environment, where religion has primarily a social or formal role, and turns out agnostic or atheistic. Then they rebound, typically into the most invasive, most decisive, strong religious mode that they can find. I’ve seen middle of the road Christians go hard core Catholic or Southern Baptist or Calvinist for just this reason. People tend to two poles on their religion: flexible or rigid. Believe what you will, but understand what your are choosing. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2008, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/162 "2008-12-09T04:17:54Z")
> [@cerberus](#): > > **Broad Brush Warning** > > I’ve seen this before. A person is raised in a religiously ambiguous environment, where religion has primarily a social or formal role, and turns out agnostic or atheistic. Then they rebound, typically into the most invasive, most decisive, strong religious mode that they can find. Suddenly I feel like I have a timebomb inside me… ---
**Author:** ![ragerdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d07c76/32.png) [@ragerdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ragerdude)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2008, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/163 "2008-12-09T04:36:36Z")
It took me a while to realize this, but the most important warning I have is this: _Christianity had its Enlightenment in the eighteenth century. Islam has **not** yet had its Enlightenment._ I can’t emphasize this enough. The best universities in Christendom now admit that not everything in the Scriptures is to be taken as literal fact, history, or science. After the Enlightenment, Christians now take an honest, rational, and realistic approach to the Bible. It is a fully human book written in historical contexts of time, place, language, and prevailing beliefs. \*If God can use an imperfect world to accomplish his purposes, so also can he use an imperfect book to accomplish his purposes. \* But, show me one university of the Muslim world where it is even permitted to express doubts about the Koran! So, **blinkthrice** , do you claim that the Koran literally plopped down from heaven, dictated by God word-for-word? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2008, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/164 "2008-12-09T04:53:27Z")
> [@ragerdude](#): > > But, show me one university of the Muslim world where it is even permitted to express doubts about the Koran! University of Sarajevo? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2008, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/165 "2008-12-09T04:56:57Z")
> [@ragerdude](#): > > After the Enlightenment, Christians now take an honest, rational, and realistic approach to the Bible. I would disagree with that statement. It is certainly a good thing that modern Christians are willing to question the more ludicrous aspects of the Bible, but there are still sacred cows that they accept without the scepticism they deserve. ---
**Author:** ![ragerdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d07c76/32.png) [@ragerdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ragerdude)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2008, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/166 "2008-12-09T05:29:46Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > I would disagree with that statement. It is certainly a good thing that modern Christians are willing to question the more ludicrous aspects of the Bible, but there are still sacred cows that they accept without the scepticism they deserve. Can you give me some examples? ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2008, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/167 "2008-12-09T05:43:37Z")
> [@blinkthrice](#): > > Islam is about acknowledging the creator. Someone can pray 5 times a day, fast every single day of Ramadan (plus every monday and thursday year round like the prophet did), give lots to charity, keep a long beard etc…but if their faith in God is weak or non-existent, then all that really doesn’t matter. Strong, solid faith is what separates those who consider duties to be rules, and rules to be duties. Say you are a programmer and you create a Sims-like world inside your computer. This world is populated by artificially intelligent creatures living their “lives” inside this world. Why would you, as the creator of this program, have a need for these creatures to “acknowledge” you? Why would you have a need for these creatures to pray 5 times a day to you? Even if you don’t have such a need, the fact that these creatures pray to you 5 times a day and “submit” to you would be treated by you in a humorous way (“Oh look how cure they are, they are ‘submitting’ to me”). Their behavior (praying, submitting, etc) would be inconsequential. Wouldn’t you rather they go out and enjoy the world you created for them, instead of forcing them to dress in a certain way, eat certain foods, pray a certain number of times a day, etc? Anyway, from your responses in this thread, it looks like your mind is made up, and I’m not sure why you started this thread, but I thought I’d get the above questions out. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2008, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/168 "2008-12-09T05:44:12Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No, there aren’t any Christian theocracies anymore. What is your point? What difference does it make when they existed? The point is that theocracy is bad, regardless of the religion in question. Islamic theocracy is not a failing of the religion, but a failing of the governments. The point is about 500 years of evolution and growth. Majority Islam countries tend to be significantly more oppressive and, let’s be frank. backward, than Western European and NE Asian counties. Christianity has evolved (often by literal force) into a much more benign religion. Islam has not. They have not lived in a vacumn and it’s too easy to dismiss it as a failing of governments when many of those government as utterly dominated by Islamic dogma. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2008, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/169 "2008-12-09T05:52:07Z")
So much for my edit effots… In a discussion about Islam it’s easy to cite Christianity’s many problems. The fact remains, however, that contemporary Christianity (and that’s what’s actually important) is in no way (as currently practiced generally) as oppressive as Islam. As to the OP’s original question, all I can say is no. You seem like a bright fellow so maybe you should spend a little more time investigating why you really seek this conversion. ---
**Author:** ![Stan\_Shmenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Stan\_Shmenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stan_Shmenge)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2008, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/170 "2008-12-09T06:36:03Z")
Because if you change your mind they execute you? [cite](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam) That’s even worse than Scientology! Because it is a hideously sexist religion that downpresses their womenfolk in barbaric ways? [cite.](http://richarddawkins.net/article,3287,Somalia-Rape-Victim-Executed,NYTimescom) Because the religion demands crazy fanaticism of it’s adherents to the point of killing any time some douchebag muslim leader declares a jihad? [cite](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam#Jihad) Because they do pilgrimages to a freaking meteorite? [cite](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Stone) Because the countries controlled by the religion, almost without exception, are the worst places in the world? [cite](http://www.learnquebec.ca/export/sites/learn/en/content/curriculum/social_sciences/sec_geography/resources/metropolises/metropole_images/LeCaire/cite_mort.jpg) When is the last time a major blessing to the world came from an islamic country? Where are the cures for diseases, innovations to feed the hungry, artworks to enlighten the spirit? These things are incompatible with the typical muslim world view, that God is all you need. That is why they, by and large, live in mud huts and carry machine guns. No, Islam is a cancer on the civilized world. If you want to live with a viewpoint lodged in the 7th century, that views the rest of us as folks who are to either be converted or slaughtered, then that is your business. To me you are basically asking if you should reject all that is modern and good to join the barbarous enemy. What do you think my answer should be? If you are that gullible that you buy into their stuff, it is too late for me to help you. ---
**Author:** ![Stan\_Shmenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Stan\_Shmenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stan_Shmenge)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2008, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/171 "2008-12-09T06:46:52Z")
And please, if you do convert, please leave the west forthwith. There can be nothing here for you except temptation. In your eyes, normal, healthy young women having fun are nothing but filthy whores. [cite](http://photos10.flickr.com/16389968_dbe0b13417.jpg) Look at those little harlots. Eating cupcakes! Tempting, um, oh yeah, cupcakes! ---
**Author:** ![Stan\_Shmenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Stan\_Shmenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stan_Shmenge)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2008, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/172 "2008-12-09T06:54:05Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > You say that creation is evidence for god’s existence. Well creation could be: > The result of the the Christian God. > The result of Odin building us on frost giant bones. > The result of Maui pulling us from the world ocean. > The vomit of a celestial turtle. > The result of Nyx’s shell in the darkness being broken, one half for the sky and the other for the Earth. > The Matrix. You forgot Xenu. ---
**Author:** ![Stan\_Shmenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Stan\_Shmenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stan_Shmenge)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2008, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/173 "2008-12-09T07:01:57Z")
> [@blinkthrice](#): > > Muhammad, in turn, is a Prophet whom we can reference and observe within the full light of history. That made me LOL. Seriously! You are aware that one of the reasons that apart from the joos and the west in general, that what muslims hate most is each other and conflicting interpretations of history? Have ya picked your side yet? Who you gonna be shooting at once Israel is no longer on the map and New York is a radioactive hole on the east coast? You do know that those muslims over there are just as much infidels as the rest? Just like gangs of teenagers. Just as stupid. Better know what to answer when that guy with an AK 47 asks “Where are YOU from?” Wowsers. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2008, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/174 "2008-12-09T07:09:47Z")
> [@ragerdude](#): > > Can you give me some examples? For a start, why assume that God exists at all? We don’t take the existence of Norse mythology as evidence of the existence of Thor, Odin and all the rest, so why take the Bible as evidence of God? ---
**Author:** ![Stan\_Shmenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Stan\_Shmenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stan_Shmenge)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2008, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/175 "2008-12-09T07:10:21Z")
> [@blinkthrice](#): > > Any religion would collapse under rational analysis So there’s your answer. All religion is bunkum. ---
**Author:** ![ToeJam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dfb087/32.png) [@ToeJam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ToeJam)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2008, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/176 "2008-12-09T07:14:13Z")
Go ahead and do whatever makes you happiest. If you feel Islam is the way to go, then go for it. We shall probably end up in the same place anyways. So until then, peace out. ---
**Author:** ![Stan\_Shmenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Stan\_Shmenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stan_Shmenge)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2008, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/177 "2008-12-09T07:14:29Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > For a start, why assume that God exists at all? We don’t take the existence of Norse mythology as evidence of the existence of Thor, Odin and all the rest, so why take the Bible as evidence of God? Christians would say that there is fulfilled prophecy in the bible, for one thing. I am not saying that, but they would. They take that as proof. Every day the world doesn’t flood and they see a rainbow, they are reminded that God kept his word. I also have a rock that repels tigers. I haven’t seen a tiger around here since I got it. You should buy it! ---
**Author:** ![ToeJam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dfb087/32.png) [@ToeJam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ToeJam)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2008, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/178 "2008-12-09T07:17:59Z")
\*though I am curious as to which branch, you shall choose. So please, keep us updated on how that goes. -And I privately agree with **cerberus** ’s broad brush statement- I’ve seen that trend as well. You probably would have avoided it if you hadn’t posted in here before you converted, but instead had posted afterward in a celebratory thread or something about your religious change- but I think you wanted the attention and debate firsthand. So enjoy it for now, I suppose, but do keep us updated. ---
**Author:** ![Stan\_Shmenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Stan\_Shmenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stan_Shmenge)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2008, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/179 "2008-12-09T07:35:22Z")
> [@Ro0sh](#): > > Go ahead and do whatever makes you happiest. > If you feel Islam is the way to go, then go for it. And be sure and write after you get settled in down in Guyana! That Reverend Jones seems very nice and gives a real good sermon! As long as you want to join a Religion that was founded in the “full light of history”, why not become a Mormon? We know a lot more about [Joseph Smith](http://www.ils.unc.edu/~unsworth/mormon/jsconviction.html) and [Brigahm Young](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_massacre) than we ever will about Mohammed! Interesting that all the founders of modern religions, Smith, Hubbard, Maharshi, the Bahgwan, Manson, Jimmy Jones, etc. were total con artists, complete douchebags, and crazy to boot. I wonder what that says about the type of person that tends to start religions? ---
**Author:** ![Stan\_Shmenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Stan\_Shmenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stan_Shmenge)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2008, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133/180 "2008-12-09T08:16:37Z")
Seriously, read [this](http://www.islam-watch.org/Brahmachari/Muslims-Enslaved-by-Koran-Islam.htm). And read some other stories from that website. See if you are still so enamored with Islam. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-not-to-convert-to-islam/476133.md?page=10)