...convince me to not support Universal Healthcare

Great Debates
21

I can tell you that there is zero chance of abolishing the single-payer system in Canada. Various provinces are always talking about relatively minor kinds of tweaks and reorganizations to improve efficiencies and the provinces are always arguing with the feds about the amount of health care transfers, but no sane politician with any hope of being elected – of any political stripe including the most staunch conservative – has ever said “let’s go to a US-style of private insurance”. If one did, he might be the first politician in history to get exactly zero votes. :smiley:

As a side note, under the Canada Health Act and the general principle of provincial autonomy, any province is free to ignore the CHA and go it alone with a system of fully private US-style insurance companies. They would then lose federal health subsidies but since private insurance is so wonderfully efficient they’d get a net benefit, right? Guess how many provinces have done this? Guess how many have even considered it? If you astutely guessed zero and zero, congratulations. Remember that single-payer UHC was not forced on the provinces; it started in Saskatchewan, and was adopted by the provinces one by one in response to its performance and public demand. The Canada Health Act was just a later initiative to enshrine its principles as national values and establish a baseline of uniform national standards.

22

…with Brexit and the lack of any substantial trade deals on offer the odds that the fundamental nature of the NHS will be changed beyond recognition are not “at zero.” There have already been substantive changes in the UK and over a decade of austerity hasn’t helped.

Not only does my bio say I live in New Zealand: the very first sentence in the OP says “I’m self employed and I live in New Zealand.” And as I said in my original response to you:

So yes there was a serious attempt to change our system. In 1984 David Lange’s government introduced “rogernomics”, a raft of reforms that deregulated industries and shifted many different government agencies to “user pays.”

It doesn’t matter that Warren dropped out. You are arguing that America and Americans are so different and so unique that what works in other countries could not possibly work in America. But Warren had a plan that was drafted by Americans, unique to America, it was costed, fundable and doable.

Nobody is expecting an easy fix. And this thread really isn’t about pointing out “the failings” of the US system. There is another thread on the front page titled “Convince me to support single-payer” and this thread is the corollary to that. This thread asks the question “convince me not to support Universal Healthcare.” If you aren’t interested in convincing me then there really isn’t a lot more to discuss.

Yep.

Maybe you don’t need the lecture. But people in this thread obviously do. Feel free to tune out, if you must.

Yep. If you want universal healthcare it is going to take a lot of hard work. Better roll up your sleeves. You need to win the House, the Senate and the Presidency just for starters. You’ve got a lot of hard work ahead of you.

I understand it much better than you think.

You have done nothing but agree with me. You concede its going to be hard. I accept its going to be hard. What is it do you think I don’t understand?

And you’ve done an exceptionally poor job of explaining why you haven’t gone to UHS.

But you don’t have to explain it to me. I understand exactly what the problem is. America is a country that began with the subjectation of the original indigenous population, it was built off the backs of slavery, its a nation full of hypocritical values and is currently in the grips of a white supremacist regime that doesn’t want to let go of any power. Most of the population has been effectively “brainwashed” by decades of propaganda that “greed is good” and “socialism is bad”. There isn’t any rational reason why America hasn’t gone to UHS.

And healthcare is just a mere part of this. But the reality is that things are going to have to eventually start falling apart. You’ve got a system where people who work in the most vulnerable industries like food service can’t afford to go to the doctor, can’t afford to take time off work, who for decades have historically gone to work sick because if they didn’t they would lose their job. And with a pandemic looming around the corner what options are going to be available for these people to self-quarantine?

You act like you’ve got all the time in the world to fix this but you really don’t.

23

It comes across as a little odd to be so concerned about something happening thousands of miles away, which doesn’t affect you at all. Just saying.

24

So you want him to explain empathy to you?

25

  1. It’s an important debate about a major socioeconomic issue. Why does it matter where someone lives, if they can contribute useful information?

  2. I myself live close to the US border and worry about the constant attempts by US private clinics and private insurers to try to insinuate themselves back into Canada after being kicked out circa 1960s. Think in terms of thousands of Mexicans and Central American migrants at your Mexican border clamoring to get in, and you begin to get the idea, except that most of these immigrants would likely productively contribute to the economy, whereas health insurers would steal from it, like parasitic leaches. Except instead of poor Central American migrants they would be white men in suits driving Porsches.

  3. I find most posts defending the US health care system to be entertaining, a lot like opening the Saturday morning newspaper and turning to the comics section. :smiley:

26

Having lived under both systems, both US and Australia - UHC is superior in every single way.

27

Universal healthcare is a no brainer in a high trust society like New Zealand.

On the other hand, the USA has far more corruption, incompetence, dysfunction, and indifference. We see how our public schools function and extrapolate from there to imagine what universal healthcare will look like. Once universal healthcare comes to the USA, the doctors and nurses will unionize and make more money than ever before. The same with drug companies and medical equipment manufacturers. **Have you ever heard of a public school system bragging about saving money? All we ever hear is that public schools are underfunded. ** I live the highest taxed state in the union and yet in the last election there was a bond measure for 15 billion dollars because the schools are unsafe with asbestos and lead paint. How could this be in a Democrat utopia? The students and their parents are all hot messes, and the teachers and administrators are as greedy as any CEO.

28

How do I approach this thread? It’s very similar to my own thread. I can’t object to health insurance in New Zealand, as you have described it. I cannot convince you to “not support Universal Healthcare”, and thus will not attempt to do so.

You seem to want to understand Americans who do not support Elizabeth Warren’s plan. I have not looked at Elizabeth Warren’s plan, therefore I cannot support it. Senator Warren dropped out of the race before appearing on any ballot I might cast a vote on, as such, I haven’t had the occasion to take a good look at her plan - despite my recent attempt to find and understand details about “Medicare-for-All”. I probably should look at her plan, at some point.

My default position is status quo: until I am convinced that some proposal will make things better, I will prefer what we have now, even if it is unfair or inefficient, because in my uninformed opinion it works well enough for most people. At the same time, I am not happy that “10s of millions” of fellow Americans don’t have access to healthcare. As far as I know, these two opinions are compatible - you have framed your questions much like a false choice.

In conclusion, I think you underestimate the pure apathy of Americans such as myself. I really don’t care that much about politics, and it doesn’t get much more political than some Democratic Senator’s dead-on-arrival bill.

~Max

29

Exuding ignorance there, there are already unions for doctors and nurses in the US. Although as The New Yorker notices, balkanized an in need to counter the dastardly corruption seen in the USA.

And yes, schools are underfunded, especially when one takes into account that we do not do much into helping the families of the students, past discussions and evidence have made me realize that it is a crucial thing that has very little funding in poor schools.

-Ed (who has worked in public and charter schools.)

30

Sorry, but in that opinion, there is a real false choice.

-Ed, (who is currently without health insurance and under self quaranteen as I have the flu, that I hope is the common one, and not something worse.)

31

I would actually really like to know what happened to healthcare, because when I was younger it seemed fine, at least where I was (Denver). There was a charity hospital, Denver General, that provided care to any city resident. You did not have to be a charity case, it was ANY RESIDENT, on a sliding scale. It had clinics for various things, and of course if you came into the emergency room they’d fix you up no problem. You did have to jump through a few hoops, like bring in your check stub or your tax return, and that determined how much you were charged on their sliding scale. For instance at the time, mid-70s, I, a really underemployed 20-something, was on the next to the lowest tier, so when I went in to get my eyes checked it cost $1. When I went in with a UTI it cost $1. When I went in to the emergency room to see if I had a broken arm (I didn’t) it cost $1. Show your card, pay $1. People making more money could pay more, but still not a lot. However, people with more money went somewhere else, usually.

There was a similar program for people who weren’t residents of Denver but were residents of Colorado, Colorado General. The problem was, CG was also in Denver, so anyone using it had to get here and Denver is not the center of the state. CG did have some outposts but rural residents were pretty much SOL.

Now here’s a little tale (TLDR warning!) In something like 1974 I was playing soccer in the park with some friends and I attemped to kick the soccer ball and instead tripped over it and fell. I threw out my right arm to catch myself and hurt my wrist. Was it broken? It really hurt, and it was swelling pretty badly, so off I went to DG to see if it was broken, or what. Not broken, but sprained. They x-rayed it, then wrapped it in an Ace bandage, then gave me a prescription for painkillers (which I could not open because I only had one hand. $1

In 2012 I did pretty much the same thing, having learned nothing about proper kicking technique over the years. This time it was one of those construction sandbags, which was lying on the sidewalk and blocking it. I intended to use my foot to nudge it out of the way and instead, you guessed it, I tripped on it. Once again I tried to break my fall using my arm, the left one this time because I had my dog’s leash in my right hand. And once again that was the wrong move and it hurt like hell. In addition, this time I banged my face into the street, too. It went numb and my lip bled like crazy.

In 2012 I had health insurance, and yet I was too afraid of the cost to go to the ER and get it checked out. I figured if it still hurt after a week or so I might go in. Why didn’t I go in? BEcause the last time one of my family members went to the ER for something (six months or so before) it cost us $1200, which was 20% of the total bill, and what was done? Well, my son had had a bicycle misfortune resulting in a very deep gouge in his leg. It was ugly and it was deep. I called his pediatrician and described it, and the doc said take him to the ER, so I did. They did not x-ray it, and they did not put in stitches. They did power-scrub it and apply antibiotics and a really nice bandage. If $1200 was 20% then that little outing, which took about an hour, most of which was waiting, cost $6000. So, in short, I wasn’t going to risk it for some trifle like a possibly broken wrist, even though (a) the first time I did it I was 40 years younger, and (b) the first time I did it I fell on grass, not concrete. This $1200 bill was still very fresh in my mind and yet it hadn’t made much of a dent in my deductible. So, I passed.

So what happened between 1974 and 2012 that made a pretty routine health-care thing so out of reach? Obviously I did not really require any care in either instance–both times my wrist hurt for awhile, then got better. But that’s, like, 95% of doctor visits, things would improve with or without a doctor. You go in to make sure you’re not in the 5%.

(In retrospect I would still have taken my son in, because that WAS a nasty-looking wound, and they expertly applied the butterfly bandage so he wouldn’t need stitches, but sheesh, why the hell would that cost $6000?)

So, what happened in Denver to make health care out of reach? Not that it was out of reach but, you know, I’d rather have a broken bone than lose my house. If it was a heart attack I might think, hmm, my money, or my life? And I’d probably call the squad.

Did I ruin the system by going in for something that turned out not to be all that serious? Well okay, now the system is fixed; I will not be going in for something I don’t think is all that serious. Or pretty much anything.

I have heard people say the system was ruined because of all the illegal immigrants, or actually what those people call them is, “the illegals.” I DON’T BELIEVE THAT. Why would they be any more unhealthy than legal Colorado natives? Why would they make more trips to the ER and the various clinics? Answer, they would not. If they’re really here illegally they are trying to stay under the radar. Going through the hoops to get a clinic card could very well expose them to deportation. I guess if someone was going to argue that they overtaxed the ER, which has to take you if you’re about to die and no card required, I could probably refute that argument too. Unless you’re in active labor or in danger of losing life, sight, or limbs, the ER does NOT have to take you.

I did ask my kids’ doctor why one of them got his full first year of health care including shots, well child visits, and sick child visits, for $88 (for the whole year) and, 16 years later, it cost $128 for his little brother to have ONE appointment. She said, “Insurance–we used to have our receptionist do it, now we have to have three people, full-time to keep up with it.” I don’t buy that that’s the whole story but I’m sure it’s part of it. I’ve also heard that transplant surgeries have caused costs to go up; medical equipment has caused costs to go up; and I know that all the hospitals in Denver (including the charity hospital) were building, building, building, continuously, all those years when costs were going up. (Including CG, which kept building, building, building, and remodeling, right up until the very actual day it moved to another location.)

Oops, guess I failed at convincing the OP to oppose UHC.

32

Speaking as a foreigner, I totally understand why it isn’t easy. It would be the biggest, most complex government-driven policy change in American history that did not involve a war. It’s DOABLE, but no one said it would be easy.

Speaking as a Canadian, I’d point out that the USA also has constitutional issues, concerning the split of powers between Washington and the states. Canada has a similar issue, which is why Canada does not in fact have a national health care system; it has provincial health care systems, which the federal government funds on certain conditions but cannot directly control. It is a system that has to meet Canada’s federally organized nature, as would the USA’s, and even then I would not suggest Canada’s system be adopted wholesale; it’s not perfect and is almost certainly not the best one around.

33

What do you mean when you write “a real false choice”?

~Max

34

It’s the difference between ‘convince me to quit my well paid and mostly satisfying job’, and ‘convince me to quit my underpaid job and take a leap into the unknown in the hope of getting a better one’. Only one of those is going to spark a serious discussion.

Banquet Bear, you’re in the best position to say what the downsides of the NZ system are. I could list some for the NHS - shortage of doctors and nurses, shortage of beds, waiting times, the postcode lottery, local hospitals closing or offering fewer services to save money, various scandals of substandard treatment. All mostly caused by chronic underfunding. Even then, it doesn’t mean that switching to a private system would be the best way to solve them, or would necessarily solve them at all.

Do you think there would be any benefits at all to moving to a US-style system? For you or NZ in general.

35

Sure, buddy :rolleyes:

36

For this message board, going for “in my uninformed opinion” is not only choosing ignorance as way of life, but also to support others that also willfully ignore that having a population living in fear of treatment due to costs leads to a population were a health issue like a pandemic can become disaster rather than a just a serious problem.

37

There are plusses and minuses to the health care model that distributes health care based on ability to pay rather than need. It’s hard to see how the plusses outweigh the minuses but if you’re asking for an argument…

If you are wealthy, then distributing health care based on ability to pay can be very good for you. Our high end health care is in general much better than the high end of universal health care plans. But it will cost you How successfully self-employed are you?

Drug companies will spend more money dealing with the health issues affecting Americans than those affecting the health issues of countries that provide less profit. America is full of fat fuckers like me and we need diabetes and heart medication. And drug companies know they can make more money coming up with ways to treat me than coming up with ways to treat malaria. Are there health issues that are unique to New Zealand that is not getting sufficient attention because universal health care reimbursement formularies do not encourage research in those areas?

The downside is lower average lifespans, higher morbidity, lower productivity, higher total health care costs.

As the saying goes, universal health care is the system you want for your country, the American system is the system you want for your family (if you can afford it), espcially if you’re fat rich and impotent…

38

Boy, that is a sentence to unpack.

I wrote, “My default position is status quo: until I am convinced that some proposal will make things better, I will prefer what we have now, even if it is unfair or inefficient, because in my uninformed opinion it works well enough for most people.”

I won’t argue with your description of me as being ignorant, although I wouldn’t say I choose ignorance. But you are wrong to suggest that I “willfully ignore” the chilling effect a medical bill has on personal health. You mentioned having flu symptoms yourself - not seeking treatment during a pandemic could have negative impacts on a societal level. I am not ignoring these impacts.

It would appear that you see some sort of contradiction here, but I do not. You will have to be more specific.

~Max

39

I actually agree that the US should eventually adopt UHC but to the OP, quite frankly you and other non-Americans ask this question often with an attitude of like “stupid Americans”.

I dont think you get it. You just cannot see how big and complex the US is compared to places like NZ. We are not stupid. We see the benefits.

Many if not most of us WANT UHC. It’s just the complexity that’s holding us back

We are working on it.

40

Sure there is, stop choosing ignorance or stop posting in a message boards where that is not kosher. :slight_smile: