# Convince me to support single-payer (US) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 5, 2020, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-to-support-single-payer-us/848939 "2020-03-05T00:55:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Translucent\_Daydream](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/translucent_daydream/32/16170_2.png) [@Translucent\_Daydream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Translucent_Daydream)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2020, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-to-support-single-payer-us/848939/161 "2020-03-09T22:58:30Z")
I don’t want to make an assumption, **Max S.** , so where are you at? From a guy just reading this (and I don’t necessarily agree or disagree with you), you seem unmoved in your position. You don’t seem like you want UHC in USA, and you are looking for an excuse to not have it. I am not saying that is your position, it seems that way. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2020, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-to-support-single-payer-us/848939/162 "2020-03-09T23:01:27Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Note that in this approach, it’s purely an issue between the medicare agency and the doctor. Even if the doctor has been found to be over-billing, it doesn’t affect that doctor’s patients. The medicare agency sues the doctor to recover the over-billed amounts. It might be your doctor who has over-billed, but you’re not involved, and the medicare agency doesn’t come after you for re-payment. It’s just between the agency and the doctor. That was a good post, and quoted post. Does this ‘purely doctor\<-\>Medicare’ dispute hold in cases where the doctor holds a _bona fide_ professional opinion as to the medical necessity of a procedure? I am concerned about a possible chilling effect if doctors ever feel the need to stray from official guidelines. Who gets hit with the bill? The ordering doctor, the servicing doctor (if distinct), the facility, the patient, or Medicare (the public)? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2020, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-to-support-single-payer-us/848939/163 "2020-03-09T23:25:08Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > That’s why it makes sense to do cost-benefit analysis across the whole population rather than worry about every individual’s coverage/entitlement.Then it doesn’t become a question of “Is this person worthy of this treatment?”, rather “Does this treatment do enough good to everyone for the service to be compelled to provide it for everyone?”. I am of a mixed mind about this. I don’t want to legislate the practice of medicine, but I do think the allocation of scarce resources calls for rationing… on an equitable basis. In the current system, we do not legislate the practice of medicine. We regulate it, and unfortunately sometimes private corporations make the rules. But the allocation of healthcare is not equitable. Under a single-payer system, while we could opt for a more equitable distribution of healthcare resources, I fear that this will result in less freedom for doctors to follow their professional judgement. That is why I am interested in **Northern Piper** ’s cites. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Translucent\_Daydream](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/translucent_daydream/32/16170_2.png) [@Translucent\_Daydream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Translucent_Daydream)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2020, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-to-support-single-payer-us/848939/164 "2020-03-09T23:29:17Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I am of a mixed mind about this. I don’t want to legislate the practice of medicine, but I do think the allocation of scarce resources calls for rationing… on an equitable basis. > > In the current system, we do not legislate the practice of medicine. We regulate it, and unfortunately sometimes private corporations make the rules. But the allocation of healthcare is not equitable. > > Under a single-payer system, while we could opt for a more equitable distribution of healthcare resources, I fear that this will result in less freedom for doctors to follow their professional judgement. That is why I am interested in **Northern Piper** ’s cites. > > ~Max I was under the impression that there were doctors sitting on the panel of rationing and effectiveness\* (not the real panel name) in Canada, UK, and other countries that determine what is approved and not approved, vs underwriters and bureaucrats in the USA at the moment. I am not sure that your fears would be realized in that system. I believe that Northern Piper stated that in another thread as well. (I could be not remembering correctly.) ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2020, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-to-support-single-payer-us/848939/165 "2020-03-09T23:42:44Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Uh? > > In the USA hospitals are being shuttered, no single payer needed. And in a very ugly irony, taking place mostly in places where many conservatives live. > > [Rural hospital closings cause mortality rates to rise, study finds](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/rural-hospital-closings-cause-mortality-rates-rise-study-finds-n1048046) I was expecting even more hospitals to close or consolidate under a single-payer system. We don’t have mostly public hospitals like other countries do, although most of our hospitals are organized as nonprofit corporations. I recognize that universal coverage means no more uncompensated hospital visits, and probably more utilization too. There is a significant savings in overhead with single-payer, but it hasn’t been made clear to me whether those savings are retained by the hospitals or whether the rates go down. Using the current Medicare-A rates as a baseline, I believe the rates would have to go _up_ significantly in order to pass the break-even point for hospital care, even with universal coverage. Not my expertise, but that’s what I have heard. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2020, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-to-support-single-payer-us/848939/166 "2020-03-09T23:50:16Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > MRI’s are not sitting around idle in the US. They’re being used on the people who would be waiting for 18-39 days. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2020, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-to-support-single-payer-us/848939/167 "2020-03-09T23:52:09Z")
> [@Translucent\_Daydream](#): > > I don’t want to make an assumption, **Max S.** , so where are you at? > > From a guy just reading this (and I don’t necessarily agree or disagree with you), you seem unmoved in your position. You don’t seem like you want UHC in USA, and you are looking for an excuse to not have it. I am not saying that is your position, it seems that way. My position has not changed much since the original post. Some arguments were presented, notably **nelliebly** ’s argument about the cost going _down_ after single-payer and **Magyver** ’s argument that single-payer has an inefficient risk pool. I believe I have struck down both of the particular arguments presented, though not all arguments leading to those conclusions. I don’t personally find “but other countries did it” to be convincing arguments. When I see an argument in favor, I look for reasons against. When I see an argument against, I look for reasons in favor. That’s just how I operate, it is not a good indicator of my overall position. Overall, I am not particularly opposed to single-payer, but I have not yet been convinced to support it. Unfortunately for supporters, my default position is the status quo. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2020, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-to-support-single-payer-us/848939/168 "2020-03-09T23:55:23Z")
What do you think of the current system? If you think it sucks, as I do, then the much better statistical outcomes and lower spending of so many other countries with UHC should be enough to convince you. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-to-support-single-payer-us/848939/169 "2020-03-10T00:08:57Z")
> [@Translucent\_Daydream](#): > > I was under the impression that there were doctors sitting on the panel of rationing and effectiveness\* (not the real panel name) in Canada, UK, and other countries that determine what is approved and not approved, vs underwriters and bureaucrats in the USA at the moment. I am not sure that your fears would be realized in that system. I believe that Northern Piper stated that in another thread as well. (I could be not remembering correctly.) The same principle is supposed to apply to the U.S. Medicare panel, which is called the Special Society Relative Value Scale Update Committee. They are all real doctors, one from each specialty board, except I think one member is a speech language pathologist. But here on the ground, doctors don’t have such a high opinion of those “politicians”. When we submit a claim, it is checked by some secret computer process at the local Medicare administrator’s office (in Jacksonville). That process is supposed to follow public guidelines from CMS (developed by real MDs) and the local Medicare administrator (I assume, also developed by real MDs). If codes don’t match up correctly, I’m pretty sure the claim is automatically denied. If we appeal, a doctor working for the Medicare administrator reviews our letter of appeal. The second level of appeal is before an administrative law judge. You may also be surprised to learn that American insurance companies have real medical/pharmacy doctors (depending on the nature of the claim) and registered nurses adjudicating claims. Even moreso than the RUC, these people are usually held thought of as having sold their souls. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-to-support-single-payer-us/848939/170 "2020-03-10T00:12:17Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > What do you think of the current system? If you think it sucks, as I do, then the much better statistical outcomes and lower spending of so many other countries with UHC should be enough to convince you. The way I see it, that’s apples and oranges. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Translucent\_Daydream](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/translucent_daydream/32/16170_2.png) [@Translucent\_Daydream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Translucent_Daydream)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-to-support-single-payer-us/848939/171 "2020-03-10T00:30:22Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > The way I see it, that’s apples and oranges. > > ~Max Or, you prefer the suck that you know vs. the potential suck you can never be sure on. Seems like with that attitude you wouldn’t change much in your life at all. I’m not picking on you or anything. Not saying you are right or wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-to-support-single-payer-us/848939/172 "2020-03-10T00:38:44Z")
> [@Translucent\_Daydream](#): > > Or, you prefer the suck that you know vs. the potential suck you can never be sure on. > > Seems like with that attitude you wouldn’t change much in your life at all. > > I’m not picking on you or anything. Not saying you are right or wrong. Not quite, I just don’t think the situation is bad enough to risk supporting a plan I don’t understand and agree with. The threshold, in case you are wondering, would be the edge of anarchy. I sort of explained my thinking on U.S. versus other country in a previous post: > [@Max\_S](#): > > Thank you, but actually I don’t find “it worked for other countries so it will work for us” to be convincing at all. In my opinion these are the weakest arguments. To make the full argument, you would have to show that other countries are similar in all of the relevant ways to the US, which is undermined by the unique nature and history of our healthcare system and the government that regulates it. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-to-support-single-payer-us/848939/173 "2020-03-10T00:46:55Z")
An important consideration is that most existing universal healthcare systems in the world are not single payer. The terms are not synonymous. There are a host of options that open up to potentially improve health care access and results without supporting single payer. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-to-support-single-payer-us/848939/174 "2020-03-10T01:51:17Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I was expecting even more hospitals to close or consolidate under a single-payer system. We don’t have mostly public hospitals like other countries do, although most of our hospitals are organized as nonprofit corporations. > > I recognize that universal coverage means no more uncompensated hospital visits, and probably more utilization too. There is a significant savings in overhead with single-payer, but it hasn’t been made clear to me whether those savings are retained by the hospitals or whether the rates go down. Using the current Medicare-A rates as a baseline, I believe the rates would have to go _up_ significantly in order to pass the break-even point for hospital care, even with universal coverage. Not my expertise, but that’s what I have heard. > > ~Max Yes, but the point was that you were wrong. Hospitals closing is a thing that is happening with no single payer present. In the Case of California, who expanded medicare, more hospitals in rural places remained open. Of course that is not Single payer, but clearly improvements in service and access can be reached in a single payer environment. Even in the USA as the VA shows.\* Trump wanted to close several VA hospitals but even Republicans complained about that. - even in the year of the waiting list scandals, the [VA satisfaction ratings were higher than 80%](https://www.blogs.va.gov/VAntage/13790/va-rates-high-on-patient-satisfaction-in-national-survey/) and they are higher now, of course that is likely to continue, unless someone points to Trump that the VA is a single payer system. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-to-support-single-payer-us/848939/175 "2020-03-10T10:42:45Z")
I say this on the BBC website today. I know that many of you cannot see the link so I have quoted a part of the piece. > [@](#): > > US is different and worried > A lot of this goes to the foundation of what the US is and is not. > > America does not really have a welfare state. The safety net it offers its citizens is threadbare, to say the least. Yes, there are a range of highly innovative social policy programmes that were left over from the New Deal in the 1930s or the War on Poverty in the 1960s. Barack Obama’s Affordable Care Act has resulted in many more millions having health insurance - but it is a long way short of what Europeans understand as a welfare state. > Just consider testing. > > A friend of mine who lives in DC had been travelling abroad. He comes back to the US and develops first a really sore throat, then a cough, and quickly afterwards a temperature. He is concerned. He rings his GP, who tells him they have no testing kits. He rings the local hospital - they tell him they haven’t got the capacity to deal with it. This is not weeks ago. This is last weekend (he seems much better now, I should add). > > But let’s say the health system is perfectly geared to meet his concerns - and the clinic or hospital says sure, come in, let’s get you tested. But now imagine my friend doesn’t have great health insurance (or any insurance for that matter). Although the administration has decreed that the test is an essential health benefit, a lot of individuals will still be left with huge bills. Just like when you insure a car in the UK, you will have an excess - so you will have to pay, say, the first $500 of any claim - so in the US there are “deductibles”. With your health insurance, there will be a sizable deductible that will fall to the citizen to pay. > > There is also the co-pay. That is the element of the cost of a prescription you will have to pay. I have often stood behind people at my local pharmacy who’ve not taken the drugs they were prescribed by the doctor because the co-pay is so high. The Financial Times estimates the cost of the coronavirus testing to be borne by individuals could cost thousands. If you’re barely subsisting and living “pay cheque to pay cheque”, where do you find the money for that? > > Or what if you are simply feeling unwell, or you may have been exposed to someone who has contracted the virus? The current advice is that you should self-quarantine for two weeks. Two weeks? That is two weeks without pay. Two weeks where you are sitting at home and you may develop nothing. It might be two weeks that will need to be repeated at a later date. > > Currently, there is no federal sick pay in the US. Eleven states, as well as Washington DC, offer sick pay. That means there are 39 states which don’t. If you go sick, you get nothing. It means that the US has fewer work days lost to illness than virtually anywhere else on the planet. > > But what if you want the employee to stay at home? The impetus if you are sick is that you will continue to go to work, increasing massively the risks that the coronavirus spreads like wildfire. Anthony Fauci, the head of the US National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases - and the doctor who has been a clear voice at all the White House briefings on the coronavirus - said at the weekend that he was concerned by the growing incidence of “community spread” - in other words, where the source of the virus is unknown. > > ~~ > > The US president has a button which, if he presses, can lead to nuclear Armageddon, and another one on the Resolute Desk in the Oval Office that will lead to one of the White House stewards bringing him another Diet Coke. > > But perhaps on health and social welfare provision in a time of emergency, this is one occasion when the man in the French presidential palace at the Elysée, and the bloke in Downing Street and German Chancellor Angela Merkel in Berlin and poor Signor Conte, the Italian prime minister, in Rome - and that’s not forgetting all those tax-heavy social democracies in Scandinavia - have more power to make a difference than the guy in the White House. > US capitalism is fantastic when markets are booming and the state lets you get on and lead your life without interference. Maybe not so good when the chips are down. > [Coronavirus: A problem unlike anything else Trump has faced - BBC News](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-51803890) ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-to-support-single-payer-us/848939/176 "2020-03-10T11:19:03Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > No, you in the UK don’t have exactly the same options as I do. If that were true there wouldn’t be the wait times. Private insurance doesn’t magically create a doctor out of thin air or an MRI machine. You’re stuck with less infrastructure. > > Your safety net doesn’t mean squat if you have to wait. Except of course that the UK **does** have a private medical infrastructure. Did you not know that? And you can get private insurance if you want to have the option of using it. The UK is not the socialist hellhole some seem to think. And because that private insurance doesn’t have to cover emergency care and life-threatening conditions like heart attacks and cancer (which are covered by the NHS), it is much, much cheaper than private insurance in the US. So in fact the UK gets UHC which means everyone has healthcare coverage, and those who want to jump the queue for non-urgent medical procedures can pay extra to do so if they are able to (feeling smug about it remains optional), but if they can’t afford it they still will get the treatment in due course as medical necessity dictates (unlike the US where they may not be able to get it at all). And, altogether, the costs are _still_ less per capita than in the US. To sum up: universal coverage, lower costs per capita, healthcare prioritized by need rather than ability to pay but rich bastards still can get special treatment if they want. Admittedly it rankles the Conservatives who, unsurprisingly, want to know how they and their rich friends can profit off the NHS but Brits as a whole freaking love the NHS. There was even a virtual love letter to the NHS in the opening ceremony of the 2012 Olympics, to great crowd response. ---
**Author:** ![Translucent\_Daydream](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/translucent_daydream/32/16170_2.png) [@Translucent\_Daydream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Translucent_Daydream)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-to-support-single-payer-us/848939/177 "2020-03-10T15:21:30Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Not quite, I just don’t think the situation is bad enough to risk supporting a plan I don’t understand and agree with. The threshold, in case you are wondering, would be the edge of anarchy. > > ~Max So, edge of anarchy? Wouldn’t there be a lot more important things to do if the country was on the edge of, uh, anarchy? [Anarchy.](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anarchy) > [@](#): > > Definition of anarchy > > 1 > a : absence of government > b : a state of lawlessness or political disorder due to the absence of governmental authority the city’s descent into anarchy If the government was on the edge of anarchy, I doubt we would be able to do much regarding health care. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-to-support-single-payer-us/848939/178 "2020-03-10T16:33:58Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Yes, but the point was that you were wrong. Hospitals closing is a thing that is happening with no single payer present. Even so, my argument was that it would be worse for the economy if more hospitals “shutter” under a single-payer system. I don’t believe you have refuted my argument. You responded by claiming that hospitals would shutter even with our current health insurance system, and I responded by clarifying that I meant more hospitals than our current health insurance system. I laid out some criteria where a single-payer system might not result in more hospitals shuttering than under our current system. Instead of taking that admission and completing a counterargument, you seem to have reverted to the previous point, which I have already told you is irrelevant. I’m sorry, **GIGObuster** , but you have lost me here. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > In the Case of California, who expanded medicare, more hospitals in rural places remained open. I would be interested in cites, if you have them. Both for California expanding Medicare and for a decrease in the closure of rural Californian hospitals. Even if you mean Medi-Cal (which I suspect you are referring to), and even if there is a direct link between the expansion of Medi-Cal and the solvency of rural hospitals, I’m not sure if that constitutes evidence against my argument. I would also need to understand how the expansion of Medi-Cal and its effects on rural Californian hospitals would be similar to single-payer. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-to-support-single-payer-us/848939/179 "2020-03-10T16:48:18Z")
> [@Translucent\_Daydream](#): > > So, edge of anarchy? Wouldn’t there be a lot more important things to do if the country was on the edge of, uh, anarchy? “Anarchy” can also mean the absence or rejection of order and civility, not necessarily the absence of government. If we had a number of riots over the inadequacy of our health insurance system, or the immediate prospect of such riots, I may be willing to support proposals that I do not fully understand or agree with. You are asking what the threshold is beyond which I abandon skepticism in politics, and that is the threshold. I’m pretty young, so my opinion may change, but that is how I view things today. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-to-support-single-payer-us/848939/180 "2020-03-10T17:32:25Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Which would be fine. The concern I thought was that using Medicare pricing would make the doctor come out worse. As you said, the fee could go down and the doctor be just as profitable. Which is what we want. Sorry, I seem to have overlooked your post. This particular line of replies leads to your claim, [POST=22174184]post #77[/POST], that “doctors would pocket the savings from not having to hire armies of insurance people.” If the fees go down so the doctor who fires billing staff comes out just as profitable as before, that doctor does not pocket any savings from culling his staff. ~Max [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-to-support-single-payer-us/848939.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-to-support-single-payer-us/848939.md?page=10)