# Convince me to vote for Kerry **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 9, 2004, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-to-vote-for-kerry/249416 "2004-06-09T05:24:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-to-vote-for-kerry/249416/41 "2004-06-10T08:21:06Z")
Oops, what I meant to say was, it’s like you’re saying “I’m _against_ x,y,z, unless Bush does it.” ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-to-vote-for-kerry/249416/42 "2004-06-10T14:02:43Z")
> [@Cardinal](#): > > Good point about the bigger govt, but I wonder what those contractors were doing. [cite](http://www.brook.edu/gs/cps/light20030905.htm) factsheet This is actually an anti-Bush cite. (It’s getting nearly impossible to find information on the web without getting left leaning pages)… However, by simply looking at the raw data we can learn a few things about the size of the government under Bush. On page five, from the “The True Size of Government Total” table we can see that the number of Federal Civil Servants has actually decreased from 1.802 Million in 1999 to 1.756 Million in 2002. This is no doubt due to the cuts and freezes Bush has done with domestic programs and spending. However, as the cite is pointing out (and posters in this thread) the real increase in the size of government has been in contractor jobs. These have gone from 4.441 Million in 1999 to 5.168 Million in 2002. This increase is what results in the total “size of government” of 12.1 Million in 2002 which is a full million higher than the 11.0 million from 1999. From page 9 of the factsheet we can see where this increase of one million contractor jobs comes from: 594,000 defense contracting jobs are the bulk of the growth. 153,000 NASA contracting jobs are another large area of growth. The growth in all other areas is much smaller than this. I seems to me from looking at these numbers that the bulk of this growth government contractor jobs is due to defense. I know that many on this board are in denial that we are in a war, but sadly this is not the case. Right now this country is fighting a war on terrorism. Wars are expensive. I don’t know how you feel about NASA spending, **Cardinal** , but most fiscally conservative types have more of a problem with waste in social programs than on the military or research spending. I know I do. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-to-vote-for-kerry/249416/43 "2004-06-10T14:13:42Z")
> [@spectrum](#): > > But he opposes the Federal We Hate Gay People and Hope They All Just Go Away Amendment, which Bush supports like it’s the second coming. Cite? I’m not familiar with a bill by that name. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > In no nation where the government can demand from public libraries a complete list of every book you’ve checked out, or from bookstores the books you’ve bought, are civil liberties fine. This is just one minor way that the Patriot Act will make it easier for future governments to crack down on those who don’t “think correctly,” or who support the “wrong ideas.” This is exactly the sort of crap you get when one asks about the Patriot Act. Nowhere in the act does it even say anything about libraries or bookstores. Please point out where the word “library” or “bookstore” even appears in the act. Have you even read it? Of couse the government can get lists of what you read. They could before the Patriot act also. What kind of expectation of privacy do you have in a public library? When you check out a book your name is taken, and libraries are public places. You notion that government will crack down on people who don’t “think correctly” is real tin foil hat territory. This simply is not the case. > [@](#): > > I’ll look around, but I don’t have time now. I know the Cato Institute has done studies. Just retract the statement. You won’t be able to prove it because it isn’t true. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-to-vote-for-kerry/249416/44 "2004-06-10T14:22:43Z")
As to Kerry’s stance on gay marriage/union - most pertinent is that Kerry is for leaving it under local control. Again _who_ exactly is it who is for Big Government getting involved and who for keeping the Feds out of it? Bush’s take is consistent: it is the Federal government’s job to take the control of educational and moral/social standards out of local control and into a Federal system of uber regulation with whatever heavy hammer it takes. Kerry is on both these issues for keeping it local. Look it is easy pickins to demonstrate Bush’s incompentence. He has fumbled eveything he has touched and badly. But Cardinal is asking for more than why to vote non-Bush. Why Kerry? I hope that he is hearing some of the good reasons to vote for this man rather than only against the other. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-to-vote-for-kerry/249416/45 "2004-06-10T14:34:19Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Of couse the government can get lists of what you read. They could before the Patriot act also. What kind of expectation of privacy do you have in a public library? When you check out a book your name is taken, and libraries are public places. Oh? So I can get a list of every book you’ve ever checked out? ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-to-vote-for-kerry/249416/46 "2004-06-10T14:50:40Z")
Are you asking literally? You (a stranger on an anonymous message board) want to see my list of books? Or you (a librarian) want to see my list of books? Or you (a police detective, investigating a crime who has a warrant) wants to see my list of books? Why is my list of checked out books so special anyway? The police already have the right to tap my phones, search my car and house, and all kinds of other invasive things. If they have enough probable cause to get a warrant, then they can invade any and all privacy that a person has, right up to a strip search. None of this is new… and things were this way before the Patriot act even existed. Lets try and end this hijack… Suffice it to say that many people don’t see the Patriot act in the same way. There is much hyperbole and exageration in what the Patriot act is and what it does. Simply mentioning it does not automatically give a good reason to vote against Bush. There have been 100 threads on the subject, and everyone is still not in agreement. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-to-vote-for-kerry/249416/47 "2004-06-10T15:22:14Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I seems to me from looking at these numbers that the bulk of this growth government contractor jobs is due to defense. I know that many on this board are in denial that we are in a war, but sadly this is not the case. Right now this country is fighting a war on terrorism. Wars are expensive. Once again, you have shown that it is not the growth of government that you oppose, it is the growth of programs that you personally do not support that you object to. You approve of the War on Terrorism[sup]®[/sup], so growth in government in the prosecution of that war is justified. But if we declared a War on Poverty[sup]®[/sup], would you support it with the same fervor? War is War, no? Or could it be that you are selective about your condemnation of “big government”, based on your own personal politics? I think there is a name for that… ---
**Author:** ![Optihut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/edb3f5/32.png) [@Optihut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Optihut)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-to-vote-for-kerry/249416/48 "2004-06-10T15:38:43Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Kerry isn’t Bush. > Trust me, that’s all the answer you are gonna get. > Regards, > Shodan There’s nothing wrong with that answer, imho. Perhaps the republican party should consider having a different candidate for the upcoming elections? ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-to-vote-for-kerry/249416/49 "2004-06-10T15:39:01Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Cite? I’m not familiar with a bill by that name. :rolleyes: Laugh it up, but that’s what the bill is. It is hate, pure, undiluted, concentrated hate, focused directly on America’s already-put upon gay and lesbian minority. Bush is a religion-addled gay basher who’s seeking to have his prejudices codified into the Constitution, and for that reason alone he should be voted out of office. The sheer act of supporting the We Hate Gays Amendment along makes someone unfit to hold public office, to say nothing of revealing them to be, at core, a terrible and heartless excuse for a human being. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-to-vote-for-kerry/249416/50 "2004-06-10T15:53:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Suffice it to say that many people don’t see the Patriot act in the same way. People don’t see all kinds of shit the same way. That’s my point. The OP wants us to give reasons to vote for Kerry, but is willing to argue every one down. If the OP likes pubbie arguments so much, there’s nothing particularly honest about asking for reasons to vote for a democrat. The OP was unimpressed with most GD threads because none of them had “incontrovertable” cites. What kind of snipe hunt is that? If such cites existed, Bush’s support would be .00001%. Everything can be argued, especially if we’re willing to qualify our original comments for every counter-example. The government should be smaller… unless it is defense. The library records are public… if you work there or are a police officer with a subpoena. If you want to dance that way, fine. But don’t pretend like you’re open for discussion. > [@](#): > > There is much hyperbole and exageration in what the Patriot act is and what it does. Disregarding the exact text of the document, it included a sunset clause and needed to be passed, apparently, immediately in order to fight the war on terror. You tell me a document like that is nothing to worry about and I’ll expect a shitload of proof. And let me tell you, I haven’t found any incontrovertable cites that tell me the Patriot Act is really ok. ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-to-vote-for-kerry/249416/51 "2004-06-10T17:25:50Z")
> [@](#): > > So could you clarify this a little more? Is the cite saying that government is actually larger under Bush persuasive to you in this regard? If not, why’s that? It’s missing the broader point, that it depends on what the government is doing that makes it bad or good. That’s why I asked what the contractors were doing. Again, it’s not fair to just pull out the fact that “the govt. is bigger” on either kind of administration. It’s exactly the kind of statement I expect out of someone’s rabid fan who’s not looking for the full story. The right-leaning radio shows do it ALL the time. > [@](#): > > Ok, this is more like what I was looking for, but so far it’s of the “it’s self evident” variety. Who/what says that W. actually lied? > Before the Iraq war, W said that: > > - there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq > - Iraq was cooperating with al Qaeda > [snipping remaining good stuff] That’s a pretty good point, and along the lines of what I had been thinking. However, I knew a lot of that, and what I’m looking for more are reasons for voting for Kerry, and a lot of what I’m getting is “Bush sucks”. That can be a pretty powerful argument if it’s true, admitedly, but it if it’s the only reason, then it means the Dems could run an aardvaark for president and it would be preferrable. > [@](#): > > You honestly don’t see that, already in your first post, you came out against the Democratic party and for the Republican party? It’s like saying, “I hate motorcycles - convince me to ride a motorcycle.” I mean, honestly - what the fuck? You say you agree with the Republican platform, then ask us to convince you to vote Democrat? You REALLY think that makes sense? It absolutely makes sense. And instead of answers like, " I love being able to cut through traffic, I love the wind around me, I like having cheaper purchases and cheaper repairs, I like being connected to the road, I like the idea of sort of just sitting on an engine as it pushes me forward, I like leaning into the turns, etc.", I getting “Well, it beats the snot out of a car!!!” Well, a lot of what I’m getting. Mostly. > [@](#): > > A lot of us are trying to reason with you. You just refuse to listen. No, a few people are trying to reason, and the rest are just really mad I’m not already convinced. But yelling isn’t a convincer. I’ve decided that it’s not just Christians who are bad at evangelism, it’s people. Yelling doesn’t change anyone. > [@](#): > > See, I don’t get you. You say you’re for smaller government, but then when it’s pointed out that Bush made the government bigger, then you defend him. YOU’RE the one who brought up the subject, but now you want to dismiss it out-of-hand. It’s like you’re saying, “I’m for x,y,z, unless Bush does it, then it’s o.k.” No, as addressed above, I’m saying that no matter who’s in office, it’s important to actually know what’s going on and the purposes and effects of what’s being done, instead of slapping a label on it like “He’s growing the government”. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-to-vote-for-kerry/249416/52 "2004-06-10T17:28:33Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > Once again, you have shown that it is not the growth of government that you oppose, it is the growth of programs that you personally do not support that you object to. So what? > [@](#): > > You approve of the War on Terrorism[sup]®[/sup], so growth in government in the prosecution of that war is justified. But if we declared a War on Poverty[sup]®[/sup], would you support it with the same fervor? War is War, no? Or could it be that you are selective about your condemnation of “big government”, based on your own personal politics? I think there is a name for that… Human? You seem to be accusing me of something nefarious simply for having beliefs that are different from you. I (and most fiscal conservative types) think that the role of government rightfully includes providing a strong defense of our country. It does not include massive social programs that currently dwarf the military budget. This isn’t exactly breaking news. It’s not a mis-statement for somebody like me to state “I’m against big government”. Anybody who’s at all familiar with conservative type thought knows the meaning. ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-to-vote-for-kerry/249416/53 "2004-06-10T17:33:35Z")
I’ve also been ignoring some of the better replies that actually tried to give reasons, which isn’t fair. It’s hard to evaluate most of them though, because I honestly don’t know what they’re referring to. For instance, Kerry wants “tax reform”, which could mean anything at all. I was using this thread to try to find a shortcut to the meat of the issues, because I thought that the SD would be smart enough and frankly left-leaning enough that it would be easy to find people who already knew exactly why they were voting for Kerry and would like to spout off why. Maybe it’s not the case, and maybe the whole thing is a failure. That’s ok, I guess. Not everything can work. But, when you see the time some people put in around here arguing if the Enterprise (Kirk version) could beat a Star Destroyer… ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-to-vote-for-kerry/249416/54 "2004-06-10T17:43:47Z")
> [@Cardinal](#): > > No, a few people are trying to reason, and the rest are just really mad I’m not already convinced. Sadly, this has become an accurate description of what the SDMB is like these days. Certainly with any threads regarding Bush this is the case. Hopefully, this trend will improve after the election. The good news is that for a left leaning message board, the SDMB isn’t so bad in this regard compared to what else is out there. ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-to-vote-for-kerry/249416/55 "2004-06-10T17:56:59Z")
The Enterprise could totally beat a Star Destroyer. And Kerry knows this. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-to-vote-for-kerry/249416/56 "2004-06-10T18:00:08Z")
I guess I should chime back in and mention that **BobLibDem** and some others have shown that I was wrong. There is actually _some_ principled support for Kerry and his positions. He ( **BLD** ) showed the same in one of the other threads **Debaser** mentioned, where I was trying like hell to get people to tell me the basis for their support for Kerry. So I will correct my earlier to say that, for 99% of Dopers, they would vote for literally anyone at all the Democrats nominated. I even had one poster say that, when he said he would vote for a convicted child molestor before he would vote for Bush, he was not being facetious. Hatred for Bush - literal hatred, not just disagreement with his politics - run pretty damn deep here. Which is why pretty much every single thread on politics on the SDMB gets dragged immediately and inexorably back to the one and only topic liberal Dopers can think about. BushliedBushliedBushliedBushliedBushliedBushliedBushliedBushliedBushliedBushliedBushlied… _:shrugs:_ Maybe in six months we can talk about something else. Unless Bush wins. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-to-vote-for-kerry/249416/57 "2004-06-10T18:20:08Z")
Yes, because conservative hatred of Clinton was totally about policies and not about his sexual practices or other meaningless nonsense… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-to-vote-for-kerry/249416/58 "2004-06-10T18:27:39Z")
> [@Cardinal](#): > > That’s a pretty good point, and along the lines of what I had been thinking. However, I knew a lot of that, and what I’m looking for more are reasons for voting for Kerry, and a lot of what I’m getting is “Bush sucks”. That can be a pretty powerful argument if it’s true, admitedly, but it if it’s the only reason, then it means the Dems could run an aardvaark for president and it would be preferrable. If the aardvark is the better choice, then you should vote for the aardvark. > [@](#): > > It absolutely makes sense. And instead of answers like, " I love being able to cut through traffic, I love the wind around me, I like having cheaper purchases and cheaper repairs, I like being connected to the road, I like the idea of sort of just sitting on an engine as it pushes me forward, I like leaning into the turns, etc.", I getting “Well, it beats the snot out of a car!!!” We’ve already given you tons of concrete reasons why we think Kerry is a good candidate, but all you seem to do is pick out the answers that you _don’t_ think answer the question, and whine about them. I think you just started this thread so you can whine. ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-to-vote-for-kerry/249416/59 "2004-06-10T18:34:42Z")
In the interests of honest and productive debate, I’m going to take a stab at this. Everyone should know I am not a Kerry supporter. So, please feel free to call me if I mischaracterize any of his positions. I should also say that I am going to pull things exclusively from the [JohnKerry.com](http://www.johnkerry.com/) web site. Primarily from the issues section. First, about taxation. Kerry is proposing something he calls “The Most Sweeping International Tax Reform in Over Four Decades” as part of his “Plan to Create 10 Million Jobs”. It seems to consist of targeting those corporations which do business over seas by eliminating, reducing, or more agressively prosecuting the tax loopholes they use. He suggests that he can save 12 billion dollars this way. His plan includes cutting the corporate tax rate by 5% (from 35 percent today to 33.25 percent). His claim is that this will raise revenues from less than 1% of corporations while lowering taxes on the remaining companies. He is also proposing a 1 year 10% tax holiday. This is supposed to bring some of the estimated $639 billion dollars invested in foriegn countries back to America. The idea is that for companies which bring money back into America, and for 1 year only, they will only have to pay 10% tax on said money. “This rate will only apply to repatriations in excess of average repatriations over a base period.” His plan predicts that this will result in a revenue boost. He plans to use this boost to pay for a “New Jobs Tax Credit”. “Kerry is proposing an expanded version of his New Jobs Tax Credit to provide a tax credit to cover employers’ payroll taxes for new jobs created in manufacturing, other industries affected by outsourcing, and small businesses. It will cover the employer’s increase in payroll tax costs. If a company currently employing 100 people goes up to 110 people, this company would get a tax credit to cover the added payroll tax costs it would need to pay for those 10 extra employees.” He also mentions something about a tax cut for small businesses which purchase health insurance for their workers. But I did not see the details. Well, that’s enough for now. I would appreciate it if any of the Kerry supporters could tell me how I did in trying to make one small argument in favor of Kerry. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2004, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-to-vote-for-kerry/249416/60 "2004-06-10T19:04:46Z")
You did real good.🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-to-vote-for-kerry/249416.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-me-to-vote-for-kerry/249416.md?page=4)