# Convince my hypothetical mass murderer that he's wrong **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 27, 2011, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-my-hypothetical-mass-murderer-that-hes-wrong/579849 "2011-04-27T02:03:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-my-hypothetical-mass-murderer-that-hes-wrong/579849/21 "2011-04-27T14:46:14Z")
Cray Mann could be a Mormon, who believe that not only babies but children up through age seven are pure, cannot sin and do not require baptism. I have yet to convince Mormons of anything so I don’t know how to combat his logic. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-my-hypothetical-mass-murderer-that-hes-wrong/579849/22 "2011-04-27T15:01:54Z")
Hmm. The more I consider his viewpoint, the more I think Cray is onto something. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-my-hypothetical-mass-murderer-that-hes-wrong/579849/23 "2011-04-27T18:19:10Z")
In the words of Joe Linsner, _This is the only real world._ Now, maybe that’s not true. Maybe there is an afterlife, but the afterlife is unknown. So we have to behave in a way consistent with this being the only real world, just in case. That’s what I’ve got. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-my-hypothetical-mass-murderer-that-hes-wrong/579849/24 "2011-04-27T19:16:36Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I’d come up with some scriptural cites for that and try to get all weepy, pretending I really believed that crap. Then when I got close enough to take his hand, I’d stab him in the throat and upper chest until he stopped moving. \<3 ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-my-hypothetical-mass-murderer-that-hes-wrong/579849/25 "2011-04-27T19:33:37Z")
You know, the notion that you do something that deserves Eternal Damnation in order to save other people from from Eternal Damnation? That’s also called playing God. Or to put it another way, it requires Cray to believe that God is evil, that God created the Earth as a gigantic damnation factory, and therefore human extinction is the most ethical response to God. If Cray believes God is evil, and this is just a case of shooting the hostages before God can get his torturing hands on them, then he’s at least being logical. Why this evil God doesn’t simply smite Cray with a lightning bolt is a good question though. But if we knew that almost all human beings faced an eternity of torment, it would agree with him that it would be better if humanity never existed. However, if Cray believes God is good, then why can’t God do what Cray wants to do? If it’s a good thing to wipe out humanity to prevent Eternal Damnation, then why doesn’t God get off his ass and do something about it? OK, he can’t send a world-wide flood again, but he’s got other resources–comets, gamma ray bursts, turn off the Sun, change the binding constant of the strong nuclear force such that atoms larger than hydrogen rip themselves apart, or whatever. He’s, you know, God. If God is good, and God created the Earth, and God sent Jesus to Earth to tell us how to behave, then why didn’t Jesus advocate human extinction in the face of God’s wrath? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-my-hypothetical-mass-murderer-that-hes-wrong/579849/26 "2011-04-27T19:36:49Z")
I don’t think original sin is the best argument to use, here, since Mr. Mann apparently does not himself believe in that doctrine, and so is unlikely to be swayed by it. Rather, I would point out that, while none of his victims will have the opportunity to sin, they will likewise lack the opportunity to do good. Just by sheer numbers, it’s likely that many of the babies he kills would have grown up to themselves save many from Hell. ---
**Author:** ![mac\_bolan00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b3f665/32.png) [@mac\_bolan00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mac_bolan00)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-my-hypothetical-mass-murderer-that-hes-wrong/579849/27 "2011-04-28T06:14:43Z")
every christian denomination will tell you that to go to heaven, you must have lived a good life. and life starts at b-day. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-my-hypothetical-mass-murderer-that-hes-wrong/579849/28 "2011-04-28T15:39:34Z")
> [@mac\_bolan00](#): > > every christian denomination will tell you that to go to heaven, you must have lived a good life. and life starts at b-day. No, Mormonism does not believe that. See post above. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-my-hypothetical-mass-murderer-that-hes-wrong/579849/29 "2011-04-28T16:05:59Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Define convince please. For instance, does killing him count? I also was wondering why anyone would bother arguing with the hypothesized person, instead of arresting or killing him. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-my-hypothetical-mass-murderer-that-hes-wrong/579849/30 "2011-04-28T16:29:51Z")
I’m assuming that he’s one of those guys who calls up the hero-cop with an untraceable black ops cell phone to philosophize and shoot the shit, and when they finally crack the encryption and race to the target, they find it’s an airport locker with another cell phone taped to the first cell phone. So while all this is going on, the hero-cop (you) are trying to talk some sense into this psycho on the phone as you’re driving around LA at breakneck speeds and crashing into fruit carts. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-my-hypothetical-mass-murderer-that-hes-wrong/579849/31 "2011-04-28T16:58:35Z")
> [@pinguin](#): > > Why to invent a poison to do the job of abortion clinics? I bet, the later kill more fetus daily than all the deads your mass murder could. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > This is not a thread about abortion. Please try to stay on topic. > [@jsgoddess](#): > > You think that more people get abortions than there are pregnant women? > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Just how common do you think abortions _are?!_ Most of the time if a woman gets pregnant she’ll keep it, especially in a society with birth control. Abortion clinics offer pregnant comen a cup of water with the poison in i? If she refuses it, do they put a gun to her head and force her to drink it? Pro-choice is thinking women have a right to legal abortions. Pro-abortion would be forcing women to have abortions. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-my-hypothetical-mass-murderer-that-hes-wrong/579849/32 "2011-04-28T18:12:51Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > I’m assuming that he’s one of those guys who calls up the hero-cop with an untraceable black ops cell phone to philosophize and shoot the shit, and when they finally crack the encryption and race to the target, they find it’s an airport locker with another cell phone taped to the first cell phone. > > So while all this is going on, the hero-cop (you) are trying to talk some sense into this psycho on the phone as you’re driving around LA at breakneck speeds and crashing into fruit carts. In that case, I bring the guy to me by taunting him, knowing his ego can’t stand that. And though I kill him after an extended gun battle/car chase, if he’s popular enough, he’ll be back for the sequel. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-my-hypothetical-mass-murderer-that-hes-wrong/579849/33 "2011-04-28T18:27:57Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I also was wondering why anyone would bother arguing with the hypothesized person, instead of arresting or killing him. Well, presumably if he’s a mass murdering rogue Christian scientist, he’s got an army of Death Bots at his beck and call. I believe they’re a free gift when you order 50 Mad Lab Coats ™ from the catalogue. Of course, with each additional purchase the schematics and a handy guide to remote hacking are mailed to the nearest hero headquarter, but still, for the price it’s a steal. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-my-hypothetical-mass-murderer-that-hes-wrong/579849/34 "2011-04-28T18:59:27Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Well, presumably if he’s a mass murdering rogue Christian scientist, he’s got an army of Death Bots at his beck and call. I believe they’re a free gift when you order 50 Mad Lab Coats ™ from the catalogue. Of course, with each additional purchase the schematics and a handy guide to remote hacking are mailed to the nearest hero headquarter, but still, for the price it’s a steal. Oh, thank Christ it’s an _army_ of murderous Deathbots. Due to the Law of Conservation of Ninjitsu, a single murdering Deathbot is nigh unstoppable. But an army of the same Deathbots should be pretty easy to defeat. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2011, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-my-hypothetical-mass-murderer-that-hes-wrong/579849/35 "2011-05-02T20:58:23Z")
> [@mac\_bolan00](#): > > every christian denomination will tell you that to go to heaven, you must have lived a good life. and life starts at b-day. What? _Most_ Christian traditions I know of disagree with at least one part of that, and often both (i.e., salvation is through faith or grace, not works; the embryo is ensouled before birth). ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2011, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-my-hypothetical-mass-murderer-that-hes-wrong/579849/36 "2011-05-02T22:01:59Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > You know, the notion that you do something that deserves Eternal Damnation in order to save other people from from Eternal Damnation? That’s also called playing God. Or to put it another way, it requires Cray to believe that God is evil, that God created the Earth as a gigantic damnation factory, and therefore human extinction is the most ethical response to God. > > If Cray believes God is evil, and this is just a case of shooting the hostages before God can get his torturing hands on them, then he’s at least being logical. Why this evil God doesn’t simply smite Cray with a lightning bolt is a good question though. But if we knew that almost all human beings faced an eternity of torment, it would agree with him that it would be better if humanity never existed. > > However, if Cray believes God is good, then why can’t God do what Cray wants to do? If it’s a good thing to wipe out humanity to prevent Eternal Damnation, then why doesn’t God get off his ass and do something about it? OK, he can’t send a world-wide flood again, but he’s got other resources–comets, gamma ray bursts, turn off the Sun, change the binding constant of the strong nuclear force such that atoms larger than hydrogen rip themselves apart, or whatever. He’s, you know, God. > > If God is good, and God created the Earth, and God sent Jesus to Earth to tell us how to behave, then why didn’t Jesus advocate human extinction in the face of God’s wrath? My answer was going to be pretty close to this, except that yours was better and more thorough. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2011, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-my-hypothetical-mass-murderer-that-hes-wrong/579849/37 "2011-05-02T22:14:22Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > _Are_ there any religions out there that believe that babies don’t get a free pass? “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God,” a sermon by Jonathan Edwards, includes a visual of unbaptized babies roasting in hell. I know SOME (not all) Pentecostal ministers who say that anyone who dies uncleansed by the blood of the lamb goes to hell–that is is irrevelevant to one’s salvation or damnation whether onen has reached the age of reason (or accountability). Others hold that anyone who dies that young automatically goes to Heaven. You could use the doctrine of total depravity, which holds that humans conceived since the Fall of Man are automatically so wicked that, without grace, they are damned. On first blush that seems risky, because TD is closely aligned with the doctrine of Doublle Predestination–the notion that God has from the beginning of time ordained which souls will be redeemed and which will be damned, and if that decision has already been made, the particular actions of any human are irrelevant to the destiny of its soul. That seems to indicate that nothing Cray Z. Man does matters in regards to the destiny of the children, and that conclusion will hardly dissuade him. Nonetheless I would go with the Total Depravity Argument, because one of two things will happen. 1. If he is unaware of the doctrine of DP, C Z Mann will be persuaded that he is damning the innocent to hell, and stop himself. 2. If he knows that doctrine he will argue, and I can allow him to refute the above contention. I can then persuade him that I have been been persuaded by his logic and am joining his cause. This will cause him to let down his guard, at which point I will use whatever weapon is available to kill him, up to and including ripping out his throat with my teeth. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-my-hypothetical-mass-murderer-that-hes-wrong/579849/38 "2011-05-03T03:12:10Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > _Are_ there any religions out there that believe that babies don’t get a free pass? > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God,” a sermon by Jonathan Edwards, includes a visual of unbaptized babies roasting in hell. Where? I’ve skimmed through the sermon and haven’t found anything fitting that description, but I may have missed it. One theory has been that babies end up in [Limbo](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbo#Limbo_of_Infants). I don’t know whether or not that counts as getting a “free pass.” Do you want all those poor babies to spend eternity trying to fit under that low pole? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-my-hypothetical-mass-murderer-that-hes-wrong/579849/39 "2011-05-03T03:34:34Z")
**Skald** is probably thinking of, > [@Jonathan Edwards](#): > > And you children that are unconverted, don’t you know that you are going down to hell, to bear the dreadful wrath of that God that is now angry with you every day, and every night? Will you be content to be the children of the devil, when so many other children in the land are converted, and are become the holy and happy children of the King of kings? So it’s really even worse. _Baptism_, or anything else adults might do with children, is insufficient to save the child who is born [depraved](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_depravity). In short, according to a [present-day follower](http://www.surfinthespirit.com/parenting/comfort.html) of this tradition, > [@Jim Elliff](#): > > …salvation is the work of God and not something that we can do for our child…Every child is on his way to hell unless God stops him. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2011, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-my-hypothetical-mass-murderer-that-hes-wrong/579849/40 "2011-05-03T04:22:49Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > This is not a thread about abortion. Please try to stay on topic. Come on. It may not be technically about abortion, but it is _clearly_ meant to be an analogy to it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-my-hypothetical-mass-murderer-that-hes-wrong/579849.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/convince-my-hypothetical-mass-murderer-that-hes-wrong/579849.md?page=3)