# Cool Historic NFL QB Photo **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [November 27, 2013, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cool-historic-nfl-qb-photo/674922 "2013-11-27T15:37:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2013, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cool-historic-nfl-qb-photo/674922/21 "2013-11-30T16:47:32Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > Assuming you’re serious, I think Warner makes it in, but probably not before Ben or Eli. Possibly in the same class, but certainly not before. > > He won a Superbowl, and though a bit of a journeyman, he won everywhere he played. _He even took the Cardinals to the Superbowl_; everyone knows Arizona is where players go to die. He should get into the HOF just for that. Twice a [First Team All-Pro](http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WarnKu00.htm), and twice the AP NFL MVP, neither [Ben](http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RoetBe00.htm) nor [Eli](http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannEl00.htm) have made the All-Pro team even once, if profootball reference is to be believed. Ben only has 800 more yds passing despite starting 22 more games. Football doesn’t have anything like OPS+ or ERA+ that I know of, but if it did, Warner’s days with the Greatest Show on Turf have to be much better compared to his peers than any of Ben’s seasons. (I’m ignoring Eli because he isn’t the equal of Ben by pretty much any statistical metric you want to use other than sack rate: Y/A, Adj Y/A, QB Rating, %Intercepted, etc…) Anyway, returning to Warner, I’m just not getting the journeyman label. For the [1999](http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb1999) and [2001](http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb2001)period, he was pretty much the best QB in the NFL. Peyton was close in '99, if you believe Football Outsiders. When has Ben ever been the best QB in the NFL? I agree with you that Warner probably won’t get in before Ben, or even Eli, but it’s ridiculous that’s going to be the case. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2013, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cool-historic-nfl-qb-photo/674922/22 "2013-11-30T17:29:25Z")
See, I don’t think [Eli Manning](http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannEl00.htm) gets in to the HoF at all (which pains me as a Giants fan). His struggles this year (he’s 32) suggest he’s not going to have a Rich Gannon-like late career stat boom. Assuming that’s true (and assuming no 3rd Super Bowl win, which would of course punch his ticket), voters will have a tough time with him. He’s got the two Super Bowls wins going for him – both of which came at the end of fantastic postseasons in which he came up huge – and a deserved reputation for playing well in close & late situations (oh ok, fine: a reputation for being “clutch”). But OTOH, he’s never been a guy with elite stats, topping out as a “Top 10” kind of QB in his better years, and he’s got a serious strike against him: too many interceptions. There’s an excellent chance he’s going to lead the league in picks thrown for the _third_ time this year, to go along with two 2nds, a 3rd, and a 4th. He’s also got a couple years in the Top 3 for fumbling. He just turns the ball over entirely too often, and while his other stats are quite good, they’re not so great that they overshadow the turnovers. I think that, at the end of the day, HoF voters are going to want to put Eli in because of the playoff greatness, but they’re going to have to compare him to his peers in this, the golden age of NFL passing statistics. Taken as a whole, his career in numbers is just going to look so ordinary compared to that of Rodgers, Brees, Brady, and Peyton. Furthermore, and perhaps just as damning, there’s going to be a whole raft of 2nd tier guys who are demonstrably ahead of him in regular season stats (like Rivers, Roethlisberger, etc.). I think he suffers too much in the comparison to get in, ultimately. Could be wrong – hope I am. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2013, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cool-historic-nfl-qb-photo/674922/23 "2013-11-30T18:09:12Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > Twice a [First Team All-Pro](http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WarnKu00.htm), and twice the AP NFL MVP, neither [Ben](http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RoetBe00.htm) nor [Eli](http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannEl00.htm) have made the All-Pro team even once, if profootball reference is to be believed. Ben only has 800 more yds passing despite starting 22 more games. Football doesn’t have anything like OPS+ or ERA+ that I know of, but if it did, Warner’s days with the Greatest Show on Turf have to be much better compared to his peers than any of Ben’s seasons. (I’m ignoring Eli because he isn’t the equal of Ben by pretty much any statistical metric you want to use other than sack rate: Y/A, Adj Y/A, QB Rating, %Intercepted, etc…) > > Anyway, returning to Warner, I’m just not getting the journeyman label. For the [1999](http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb1999) and [2001](http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb2001)period, he was pretty much the best QB in the NFL. I don’t disagree with any of that. And I agree that he probably deserves to enter the HOF before Ben and Eli. Here’s what I’m seeing is hurting Kurt Warner’s case: [ul] [li]A third of his career he was not the full-time starter. Part of that is due to injury, part of it due to shitty play.[/li][li]He’s had a bunch of horrifically bad years. Was at least some of that due to playing on horrifically bad teams? For sure. But it can’t be overlooked.[/li][li]Almost half the seasons he played, he got benched in favor of arguably lesser players (one of whom was Eli Manning). Notable that Warner was 5-4 at the time, and Manning went 1-6, but OTOH he got benched in favor of Josh McCown, and _several times_ he got benched in favor of _Matt Leinart_ :eek:. Again, many of those were due to injury, but he still wasn’t playing well enough in those seasons to automatically regain his starting job once healthy.[/li][/ul] Now, is all of that fair? Absolutely not. But it still happened. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2013, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cool-historic-nfl-qb-photo/674922/24 "2013-12-01T01:37:07Z")
I couldn’t see a link to the original _Life_ article anywhere. I thought some folks might be interested in seeing it. [“Open Season on Pro Quarterbacks,” November 17, 1961](http://books.google.com/books?id=6FMEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA148&hl=en&sa=X&ei=C5KaUr4WkNygBPebgvgG&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false) ---
**Author:** ![unwashed\_brain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/a9adbd/32.png) [@unwashed\_brain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unwashed_brain)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cool-historic-nfl-qb-photo/674922/25 "2013-12-02T14:03:18Z")
Crazy - a coworker of mine brought in that very issue a couple weeks back and I snapped some pics of it. We’re both Vikings fans, and it was cool to see the article on young Fran Tarkenton. I also took some pics of the **Mad Men** -era advertisements - one was a full page ad for canned Chef Boy-ar-dee pasta. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cool-historic-nfl-qb-photo/674922/26 "2013-12-02T14:49:24Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Which makes me wonder: How many of the QB’s in the picture were thought of as HOF’ers _at the time_? Layne and Unitas were definite. Tittle was close, but his last few years put him over the top. Starr was already a pro bowler, but too young. Jurgenson had his first great season in 1961, and Tarkenton was a rookie. There may be one or two more unexpected names among current QBs who will make it to the hall. Having the right supporting cast can make a big difference. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cool-historic-nfl-qb-photo/674922/27 "2013-12-02T15:23:46Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > But I wouldn’t choose him over Brady, Brees or even Ben if i had to win one game. You seriously would take Ben Rothlisberger over Peyton Manning? That’s just plain silly. Put Peyton Manning on those Steeler teams, and they’d have been a dynasty, and well within the discussions of the greatest teams ever. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cool-historic-nfl-qb-photo/674922/28 "2013-12-02T15:25:16Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > See, I don’t think [Eli Manning](http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannEl00.htm) gets in to the HoF at all (which pains me as a Giants fan). His struggles this year (he’s 32) suggest he’s not going to have a Rich Gannon-like late career stat boom. Assuming that’s true (and assuming no 3rd Super Bowl win, which would of course punch his ticket), voters will have a tough time with him. > > He’s got the two Super Bowls wins going for him – both of which came at the end of fantastic postseasons in which he came up huge – and a deserved reputation for playing well in close & late situations (oh ok, fine: a reputation for being “clutch”). But OTOH, he’s never been a guy with elite stats, topping out as a “Top 10” kind of QB in his better years, and he’s got a serious strike against him: too many interceptions. There’s an excellent chance he’s going to lead the league in picks thrown for the _third_ time this year, to go along with two 2nds, a 3rd, and a 4th. He’s also got a couple years in the Top 3 for fumbling. He just turns the ball over entirely too often, and while his other stats are quite good, they’re not so great that they overshadow the turnovers. > > I think that, at the end of the day, HoF voters are going to want to put Eli in because of the playoff greatness, but they’re going to have to compare him to his peers in this, the golden age of NFL passing statistics. Taken as a whole, his career in numbers is just going to look so ordinary compared to that of Rodgers, Brees, Brady, and Peyton. Furthermore, and perhaps just as damning, there’s going to be a whole raft of 2nd tier guys who are demonstrably ahead of him in regular season stats (like Rivers, Roethlisberger, etc.). I think he suffers too much in the comparison to get in, ultimately. > > Could be wrong – hope I am. Next to Joe Namath, I’d put Eli as the biggest joke if he makes the HOF. ---
**Author:** ![unwashed\_brain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/a9adbd/32.png) [@unwashed\_brain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unwashed_brain)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cool-historic-nfl-qb-photo/674922/29 "2013-12-02T15:28:40Z")
> [@unwashed\_brain](#): > > Crazy - a coworker of mine brought in that very issue a couple weeks back and I snapped some pics of it. We’re both Vikings fans, and it was cool to see the article on young Fran Tarkenton. I also took some pics of the **Mad Men** -era advertisements - one was a full page ad for canned Chef Boy-ar-dee pasta. I posted the pics I took to my Flickr photostream. You may need to be a Flickr user to view them. There should be 16 pics. Enjoy!🙂 [http://www.flickr.com/photos/wrogers/](http://www.flickr.com/photos/wrogers/) ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cool-historic-nfl-qb-photo/674922/30 "2013-12-02T18:38:35Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > You seriously would take Ben Rothlisberger over Peyton Manning? That’s just plain silly. To add a little statistical analysis to this: Which QB would you want from these stat lines in their playoff career? (No cheating by looking) ```auto Att. Comp Comp % Yards TD Int Passer Rating A 460 734 62.67% 5772 45 21 95.6 B 481 761 63.21% 5679 32 21 88.4 C 553 887 62.34% 5949 42 22 87.4 D 248 409 60.64% 3150 20 17 83.7 E 261 456 57.24% 3833 30 26 83.0 F 120 226 53.10% 1663 7 10 68.9 ``` Here’s who they are: A = Joe Montana B = Peyton “Choke in Big Games” Manning C = Tom “Mr. Clutch” Brady D = Ben “Better than Manning” Rothlisberger E = Terry “4 Super Bowl Rings” Bradshaw F = Johnny Unitas ---
**Author:** ![HookerChemical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/278dde/32.png) [@HookerChemical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HookerChemical)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cool-historic-nfl-qb-photo/674922/31 "2013-12-02T18:49:37Z")
Super Bowl rings are a ridiculously bad way of rating quarterbacks. By that measure, Trent Dilfer is better than Dan Marino. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cool-historic-nfl-qb-photo/674922/32 "2013-12-02T18:55:24Z")
Right, a long career of nearly uniformly exceptional performance is what will get you in, and the rings are only clinchers. That will leave Eli out, btw - he’s had a couple of pretty good years with a good team around him, and just as many like, well, the current one. Dilfer is only one example of a solid \*team \*with only an average QB being able to win it all. Marino never had a good enough team around him after his rookie year, by that token. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cool-historic-nfl-qb-photo/674922/33 "2013-12-02T19:02:56Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Dilfer is only one example of a solid \*team \*with only an average QB being able to win it all. Marino never had a good enough team around him after his rookie year, by that token. Part of the problem is that the Super Bowl is one game. You can have “average” NFL QB’s who, for one game (or a few including playoffs) have a special game. I would consider guys like Ken Stabler, Doug Williams, Jim Plunkett, Jeff Hostetler, Brad Johnson, Bob Griese, Jim McMahon, and Joe Flacco to be no better than average NFL quarterbacks who have won it all. And Joe Namath may have been worse than any of those listed, including Dilfer. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cool-historic-nfl-qb-photo/674922/34 "2013-12-02T19:07:19Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Dilfer is only one example of a solid \*team \*with only an average QB being able to win it all. Marino never had a good enough team around him after his rookie year, by that token. I’d put Flacco in his company. Flacco put up tremendous numbers last post-season, but they were pretty unusual for him. And don’t forget Brad Johnson - never was there a more average QB with a ring than him. Edit: dammit, Hamlet… ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cool-historic-nfl-qb-photo/674922/35 "2013-12-02T19:10:04Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Edit: dammit, Hamlet… There’s a song to Hamlet: The Musical, somewhere in there. \*You’re the Prince. You should be King But your evil Uncle Did his thing. Dammit! Hamlet! You must kiiiiiilllllll him\* ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2013, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cool-historic-nfl-qb-photo/674922/36 "2013-12-02T23:40:08Z")
Almost no chance that Ben gets in, Eli is a real long shot. Now in the QB era the grading scale for QBs will change dramatically. Neither Ben or Eli could ever claim they were the best QB in any year they played and it’s a stretch to say they were top 3. The goal posts have been moved, leading a well rounded team, which was essentially built before they arrived, to two SB titles just doesn’t mean that much any more. Back to the OP, there are probably 4 HOFers in Brady, Manning, Brees and Rodgers right now (Rodgers needs to keep going a while longer, but it’s a safe bet). Then I’d bet there are 2-3 more starting in the league today, we just don’t know who they are yet. Maybe Luck, RG3 and Wilson, maybe Luck, Kaepernick and Newton, maybe Romo, Cutler and Rivers, maybe Ryan, Foles and Stafford, maybe Ben and Eli have Elway-like finishes to their careers…who knows, but I think the odds are good that there will be 6 or more starters from this years starting class in the Hall. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cool-historic-nfl-qb-photo/674922/37 "2013-12-03T00:13:31Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > he’s got a serious strike against him: too many interceptions. Couldn’t the same logic be applied to Favre? And he’s only got one Super Bowl ring. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cool-historic-nfl-qb-photo/674922/38 "2013-12-03T00:15:21Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > And don’t forget Brad Johnson - never was there a more average QB with a ring than him. Trent Dilfer, Mark Rypien, Jim Plunkett… ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cool-historic-nfl-qb-photo/674922/39 "2013-12-03T01:07:13Z")
> [@Gordon\_Urquhart](#): > > One of our local TV newsies, who has a reasoned interest in sports, just tweeted a link to this [Life magazine photo](http://thestacks.deadspin.com/fourteen-nfl-quarterbacks-play-nice-in-a-chicago-photo-1472029686) and an accompanying article. It’s a photo from 1961, with all 14 NFL teams’ quarterbacks – six of those guys are HOFers. > > Could anything like this happen today, even discounting the fact that there are more than twice as many teams now? Will 43 percent of today’s starting QBs be in the Hall of Fame? Would half of them feel comfortable tossing a spiral underhand? > > Anyway, neat photo – always good to see a new image of Y.A. Tittle. Just to add…follow the link in the OP’s link to look at the pictures this very same photographer took in Guadalcanal in 1942. Very poignant. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cool-historic-nfl-qb-photo/674922.md?page=1)