# Cool Math Thing in the Bible **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 4, 2025, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cool-math-thing-in-the-bible/1017847 "2025-05-04T02:38:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2025, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cool-math-thing-in-the-bible/1017847/1 "2025-05-04T02:38:59Z")
I was legit mindblown to learn this today… First Kings 7:23 reads in translation: “Then he made the tank of cast metal, 10 cubits across from brim to brim, completely round; it was 5 cubits high, and it measured 30 cubits in circumference”. Cynics on this board and elsewhere have often cited this verse to claim that the Bible says _pi_ is exactly equal to 3. The usual rejoinders are “who cares?”, “it’s not actually wrong, since it’s only giving one significant digit”, and “maybe the diameter is being measured between the inner edges of the brim, so the thickness of the tank walls accounts for the difference”. But this is much cooler…the word translated as “measured” is KV, which has the basic meaning of “line”. When we read from the Bible, we say KV, because that makes sense in context. But the actual Biblical text contains a superfluous letter and reads KVH, which means “hope”. There are many commentaries on the wordplay there, but there’s also numberplay. Every Hebrew letter has a numerical value, and therefore every word has a value which is the sum of its letters. The value of KV is 106, and that of KVH is 111. To five decimal places, 111/106 = _pi_/3. Either it’s a really bizarre coincidence or some ancient mathematician knew exactly what he was doing adding that extra H. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2025, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cool-math-thing-in-the-bible/1017847/2 "2025-05-04T02:45:48Z")
Huh, i bet you are right. That’s funny. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2025, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cool-math-thing-in-the-bible/1017847/3 "2025-05-04T03:14:41Z")
Lamentations 3:55: I called upon thy name, O LORD, out of the low dungeon. Five is the key. Count every fifth word: I, O, low. **113**. In verse **3:55**. 355. 113. 355/113 = **3.141592** 9203539. That’s _seven_ digits of pi. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2025, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cool-math-thing-in-the-bible/1017847/4 "2025-05-04T03:32:14Z")
They didn’t use Arabic numerals, that’s just a coincidence. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2025, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cool-math-thing-in-the-bible/1017847/5 "2025-05-04T03:37:17Z")
Are you saying an _omniscient god_ could not have predicted the use of a base-10 positional number system and the existence of the King James translation? _HERESY!_ ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2025, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cool-math-thing-in-the-bible/1017847/6 "2025-05-04T03:43:26Z")
They didn’t have a 0, either. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2025, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cool-math-thing-in-the-bible/1017847/7 "2025-05-04T03:48:05Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Either it’s a really bizarre coincidence or some ancient mathematician knew exactly what he was doing adding that extra H. My vote is neither. Rather, it comes down to pattern seeking in the human mind. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2025, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cool-math-thing-in-the-bible/1017847/8 "2025-05-04T09:00:18Z")
> [@susan](#): > > They didn’t have a 0, either. And numbered verses is a modern invention. ---
**Author:** ![burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/burpo_the_wonder_mutt/32/365_2.png) [@burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burpo_the_wonder_mutt)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2025, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cool-math-thing-in-the-bible/1017847/9 "2025-05-04T13:33:35Z")
Cecil’s column on the subject: > **[Did a state legislature once pass a law saying pi equals 3?](https://www.straightdope.com/21341975/did-a-state-legislature-once-pass-a-law-saying-pi-equals-3)** You all play nice or I’ll drag out Unca Cecil’s column about the missing day theory and there goes the rest of your weekend. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2025, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cool-math-thing-in-the-bible/1017847/10 "2025-05-04T19:16:44Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > To five decimal places, 111/106 = _pi_/3. Either it’s a really bizarre coincidence or some ancient mathematician knew exactly what he was doing adding that extra H. It’s four decimal places (5 significant figures) I think, but also, why would it be pi _divided by 3_ - what is the significance of the division by 3? How does that fit? ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2025, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cool-math-thing-in-the-bible/1017847/11 "2025-05-04T19:24:17Z")
Aliens, of course! ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2025, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cool-math-thing-in-the-bible/1017847/12 "2025-05-04T20:03:00Z")
Because dividing by 3 is the only way to make these arbitrary numbers look like they’re meaningful. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2025, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cool-math-thing-in-the-bible/1017847/13 "2025-05-04T23:42:42Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > It’s four decimal places (5 significant figures) I think, but also, why would it be pi _divided by 3_ - what is the significance of the division by 3? How does that fit? It’s the parallelism I find neat. It’s like the verse is winking at us, saying that just like we know the verse means KV when it says KVH, we also know it means 3.1416 when it says 3. There’s no other obvious reason for the superfluous H to exist. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2025, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cool-math-thing-in-the-bible/1017847/14 "2025-05-04T23:52:21Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > There’s no other obvious reason for the superfluous H to exist. I wouldn’t call yours an _obvious_ reason. Your interpretation _might_ be right, but it’s hardly obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2025, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cool-math-thing-in-the-bible/1017847/15 "2025-05-05T00:48:43Z")
OK, fair point! ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2025, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cool-math-thing-in-the-bible/1017847/16 "2025-05-05T01:13:07Z")
In the King James Version, a few lines later it says > For on the plates of the ledges thereof, and on the borders thereof, he graved cherubims, lions, and palm trees, according to the proportion of every one, and additions round about. Now if you take each English word and convert to a number (A=1, B=2, etc and add them up), you’ll find that “cherubims” = 98 and “proportion” = 156, and 98/156 = pi/5. The KJV translators must have known what they were doing! (Ok, it’s only to four places and a little more obviously cherry-picked than the OP.) ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2025, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cool-math-thing-in-the-bible/1017847/17 "2025-05-05T01:19:04Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > It’s the parallelism I find neat. It’s like the verse is winking at us, saying that just like we know the verse means KV when it says KVH, we also know it means 3.1416 when it says 3. There’s no other obvious reason for the superfluous H to exist. This seems like a good place to point out that in the Hebrew text of Exodus 8, it says “frog” instead of “frogs”, which prompted Talmudic scholars to debate whether or not Moses had God unleash one really big frog that wreaked havoc on Egypt’s crops, which in turn prompted a metaphorical argument about the Bar Kochba rebellion. Sometimes the Bible is just weird like that. > **[Frog or Frogs?](https://sephardicu.com/midrash/frog-or-frogs/)** > > Messianic Wars in Midrash – Parashat VaEra In Exodus 8:2 we read of the second plague of Egypt, frogs: ותעל הצפרדע ותכס את ארץ מצרים. The literal translation of these words is: The frog \[singular\] came up and covered the land of Egypt. The use of the... (This counts as my one post for this week. Hi, everybody!) ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2025, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cool-math-thing-in-the-bible/1017847/18 "2025-05-05T03:47:08Z")
Just to be clear: There’s no evidence that the ancients knew pi to more than 2-3 decimal places (equivalent). Presuming that Kings 7:23 was written in at least 500 BCE, the best known approximation was 25/8, or 3.125. It took until Archimedes (circa 250 BCE) to reach another decimal place, proving that pi was between 3.140845 and 3.142857 (that is, between 223/71 and 22/7). You can see the history here: > **[Chronology of computation of π](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_computation_of_%CF%80)** > > Pi (approximately 3.14159265358979323846264338327950288) is a mathematical sequence of numbers. > The table below is a brief chronology of computed numerical values of, or bounds on, the mathematical constant pi (π). For more detailed explanations for some of these calculations, see Approximations of π. > As of July 2024, π has been calculated to 202,112,290,000,000 (approximately 202 trillion) decimal digits. The last 100 decimal digits of the latest world record computation are: > "He puts on (th... The OP is claiming that pi was really known to 3.1415… and that this was hidden in the bible. But you can find just about whatever you want using gematria (converting Hebrew letters to numbers). You can search for your own favorite numbers here: > **[Full Text Hebrew/Greek Bible Gematria Database](https://www.biblewheel.com/GR/GR_Database.php)** But if you really want to dive into crazy-town, you can check out pages like this, which detail all sorts of coincidences about pi, e, triangular numbers, hexagonal numbers, and so on: > **[Pearls of Wisdom](https://www.biblegematria.com/pearls-of-wisdom.html)** > > Gematria provides convincing evidence of the Bible's divine authorship - just the first seven words of the Hebrew Bible are all it takes to affirm that God is the Creator. In the Jewish tradition,... It’s just all pure coincidence. Start with a gigantic list of numbers and you can find whatever you want. Especially if you are allowed to make arbitrary changes like multiplying by 3 or adding/removing letters, and so on. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2025, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cool-math-thing-in-the-bible/1017847/19 "2025-05-05T05:58:03Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > There’s no other obvious reason for the superfluous H to exist. Copyist errors are a known and obvious reason. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2025, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cool-math-thing-in-the-bible/1017847/20 "2025-05-05T12:22:13Z")
I’ve commented on this many times, once within the past month. I ain’t writing it down again. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cool-math-thing-in-the-bible/1017847.md?page=2)