# Cop killed in car chase, thugs charged with murder 1 **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 13, 2003, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killed-in-car-chase-thugs-charged-with-murder-1/201383 "2003-09-13T13:22:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![corndog\_man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea666f/32.png) [@corndog\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/corndog_man)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killed-in-car-chase-thugs-charged-with-murder-1/201383/1 "2003-09-13T13:22:48Z")
I am from Memphis, and I was reading a tragic story on [www.gomemphis.com](http://www.gomemphis.com) (Memphis newspaper website), about three idiots stealing a couple of cases of candy bars and taking off from a discount store (from West Memphis Ar.). The W. Memphis cops are called and give chase. The thugs decide to break for Memphis on the highway. A cop lost control of his vehicle during the chase and was killed. The thugs were arrested across the river in Memphis. Now these idiots are charged with felony theft and first degree murder. Murder? How? They did not kill the cop, did not ram his vehicle or tried any harm whatsoever, these were dumbasses who were trying to get away after a reletively minor crime. The cop lost control of his vehicle. The cop killed himself accidentally. The thugs should be tried for theft and felony resisting, or felony chase. These dumbheads should do 2-5 on an Arkansas prison farm. They did not kill the cop. I feel sorry for the candy thieves. Any comments? ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killed-in-car-chase-thugs-charged-with-murder-1/201383/2 "2003-09-13T13:31:35Z")
And the factual question here would be what? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killed-in-car-chase-thugs-charged-with-murder-1/201383/3 "2003-09-13T13:43:56Z")
The factual question is whether they are, in fact, guilty of first degree murder. I do not believe they can be held to be guilty of first degree murder by any stretch of any law. ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killed-in-car-chase-thugs-charged-with-murder-1/201383/4 "2003-09-13T13:46:19Z")
I’m also unsure of what the GQ here is, but in most states of the US, if someone dies while a felony is being committed, regardless of whether it was intentional or not, the perpetrators of the felony will be held responsible for the death. Typically, they’d be charged with “felony murder” which is described quite thoroughly in the last post of [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=210549) thread. First degree murder sounds unusual to me, but hopefully a Doper trained in legal matters can shed some light on that. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killed-in-car-chase-thugs-charged-with-murder-1/201383/5 "2003-09-13T13:50:36Z")
Well, if it’s an IMHO question, then in IMHO, the police chief is a complete tosser who’s trying to deflect personal culpability over his “no seat belts” policy. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killed-in-car-chase-thugs-charged-with-murder-1/201383/6 "2003-09-13T13:55:23Z")
Looks to me like the offenders were in the commission of a felony and someone died during such commission; therefore, first degree murder (aka “felony murder”). ---
**Author:** ![Master\_Wang-Ka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/master_wang-ka/32/3325_2.png) [@Master\_Wang-Ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Master_Wang-Ka)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killed-in-car-chase-thugs-charged-with-murder-1/201383/7 "2003-09-13T13:56:31Z")
Sublight’s got it. The wording of the laws with which I am familiar says that if, in the commission of a felony, the actions of the perpetrator directly cause the death of other persons, then the perpetrator(s) shall be held responsible for the death as if they had killed the person(s) themselves, with intent. I don’t see how this does not apply to this cop. If, for example I was walking across the street against the red light, and was suddenly run down by these candy crooks, I really doubt the DA or the jury would refuse to slap them with a murder charge simply because I was jaywalking, although a good lawyer could make something of that. Whatever the chief’s malfunction is about seat belts is a completely different issue. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killed-in-car-chase-thugs-charged-with-murder-1/201383/8 "2003-09-13T14:07:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wang-Ka \* > \*\*Whatever the chief’s malfunction is about seat belts is a completely different issue. \*\* FWIW: > [@](#): > > Just minutes into the chase, Officer Michael Waters, 24, was thrown from his overturned patrol car when it hit a concrete barricade. Moments later a second patrol car, also in pursuit, ran over Waters as he lay in the roadway of a closed section of Interstate 55. > > \ > > The Arkansas State Police indicated in its initial report that neither Waters nor his passenger, police trainee, Robert Hester, 22, was wearing a seatbelt. > > \ > > However, Paudert said he doesn’t require his officers to wear a seatbelt if they are patrolling high-crime neighborhoods. He said wearing a seatbelt interferes with an officer who must pull his gun quickly. ---
**Author:** ![Master\_Wang-Ka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/master_wang-ka/32/3325_2.png) [@Master\_Wang-Ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Master_Wang-Ka)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killed-in-car-chase-thugs-charged-with-murder-1/201383/9 "2003-09-13T14:10:56Z")
Like I said: a completely different issue. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killed-in-car-chase-thugs-charged-with-murder-1/201383/10 "2003-09-13T14:40:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wang-Ka \* > \*\*Sublight’s got it. The wording of the laws with which I am familiar says that if, in the commission of a felony, the actions of the perpetrator directly cause the death of other persons, then the perpetrator(s) shall be held responsible for the death as if they had killed the person(s) themselves, with intent. > > I don’t see how this does not apply to this cop. I don’t see how it **does** apply. I cannot see how the actions of the perpetrator **directly** caused the death of the cop. No way. ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killed-in-car-chase-thugs-charged-with-murder-1/201383/11 "2003-09-13T15:45:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wang-Ka \* > **Sublight’s got it. The wording of the laws with which I am familiar says that if, in the commission of a felony, the actions of the perpetrator directly cause the death of other persons, then the perpetrator(s) shall be held responsible for the death as if they had killed the person(s) themselves, with intent.** Actually, that’s not quite what I said. If someone dies while a felony is being comitted, the perpetrator (or perpetrators) will be held responsible. From what I’ve read, this can even apply to people who are only very indirectly responsible for the death (the getaway driving sitting in a car outside while a bank teller inside gets shot trying to wrestle a gun out of a robber’s hand, for example). In this case, even though decisions made by the police were factors in the death of Officer Waters, the chase would not be occurring were it not for the fleeing felons, and so they are responsible even if they did not directly kill him. ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killed-in-car-chase-thugs-charged-with-murder-1/201383/12 "2003-09-13T15:49:05Z")
For the sake of clarity, read “perpetrator (or perpetrators)” as “perpetrator (or perpetrators) of the felony” and not just as the perpetrator who directly caused the death. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killed-in-car-chase-thugs-charged-with-murder-1/201383/13 "2003-09-13T16:01:21Z")
Here’s an article with a little more explanation (not much) on the charges. [What Prompted Deadly Police Chase?](http://www.wreg.com/Global/story.asp?S=1441118) Part of article - > [@](#): > > “Why they got to do my little brother like this? That’s my little brother,” says Yolanda Shannon on her brother’s front porch. She can hardly stand as she talks about the murder charges her brother, Otis Graham, now faces. “I don’t think it’s fair. I don’t think it’s fair at all,” She says. She says she talked to her brother from jail, and he told her that he and the two other suspects, Terrell Kinnell and Martine Fondren, admit they stole ten boxes of candy, but say they didn’t intend to kill an officer. > > But that doesn’t matter at the West Memphis Police Station where officer Michael Waters served for two years. Police Chief Bob Paudert applauds the murder charges. “Because we got an officer who was killed in the line of duty chasing some thugs through here,” says Paudert. > > Yolanda says her brother sat in the back seat, not driving at the time of the crash. But police and prosecutors say all three men are responsible for the death. “We’re going to pursue that on all three of them. There’s no question we’re going to charge them with first degree murder as they should be,” says Chief Paudert. > > Charges like these have come up after police pursuits in the past. In 2001, a jury convicted Quinton Sanders of murder after he caused a crash that killed Memphis Police Officer Don Overton. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killed-in-car-chase-thugs-charged-with-murder-1/201383/14 "2003-09-13T16:24:26Z")
From the [Tennessee code](http://198.187.128.12/tennessee/lpext.dll?f=templates&fn=fs-main.htm&2.0): > [@](#): > > 39-13-202. First degree murder. > (a)\_ First degree murder is:\_ > (1) A premeditated and intentional killing of another;\_ > (2) A killing of another committed in the perpetration of or attempt to perpetrate any first degree murder, act of terrorism, arson, rape, robbery, burglary, theft, kidnapping, aggravated child abuse, aggravated child neglect or aircraft piracy; or\_ > (3) A killing of another committed as the result of the unlawful throwing, placing or discharging of a destructive device or bomb.\_ > (b)\_ No culpable mental state is required for conviction under subdivision (a)(2) or (a)(3) except the intent to commit the enumerated offenses or acts in such subdivisions. So, yeah, the suspects can be legitimately charged under the statute with first degree murder, the whining of the sister notwithstanding. The moral of the story is don’t go along for the ride if your buddy’s gonna do some crimes. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Griffin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_Griffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Griffin)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killed-in-car-chase-thugs-charged-with-murder-1/201383/15 "2003-09-13T16:27:08Z")
If the police officer was in a high speed chase he should have put his seatbelt on. he was at more risk not wearing a seatbelt than he was from not being able to get at his gun quickly enough. Also, it looks like the policeman who ran him over was guilty of driving without due care and attention. Just because he’s chasing someone doesnt mean he can put others at risk. I fail to see how 1st degree murder is in any way appropiate. however, america is well known for having screwed up justice. ---
**Author:** ![ooga\_booga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/b77776/32.png) [@ooga\_booga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ooga_booga)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killed-in-car-chase-thugs-charged-with-murder-1/201383/16 "2003-09-13T16:30:35Z")
> [@](#): > > (2) A killing of another committed in the perpetration of or attempt to perpetrate any first degree murder, act of terrorism, arson, rape, robbery, burglary, theft, kidnapping, aggravated child abuse, aggravated child neglect or aircraft piracy; But neither one of them committed the killing themselves. Say during the pursuit one of the policmen blew through a red light and rammed an innocent bystander’s car, killing them. Could they be charged with murder one for that too, even though in that case it would be negligence of the officer (in not checking to see that traffic was clear) that resulted in the death? Or say a police helicopter also chasing the suspects, and it crashed during the pursuit. Murder one for that too? ---
**Author:** ![ooga\_booga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/b77776/32.png) [@ooga\_booga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ooga_booga)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killed-in-car-chase-thugs-charged-with-murder-1/201383/17 "2003-09-13T16:33:40Z")
Yaah, typos and an ill-formed sentence. Need to hit the coffee a little more before I post. What I meant for my last sentence to read was: Or say a police helicopter was also chasing the suspects, and it developed mechanical problems and crashed during the pursuit, killing the pilot. Murder one for that too? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Griffin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_Griffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Griffin)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killed-in-car-chase-thugs-charged-with-murder-1/201383/18 "2003-09-13T16:41:45Z")
The police have to know where the line is in terms of safety for their own actions in any pursuit. That line was crossed there and resulted in one of them dying. It’s not directly the criminals fault. Therefore it cannot be 1st degree. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killed-in-car-chase-thugs-charged-with-murder-1/201383/19 "2003-09-13T16:55:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Otto \* > From the [Tennessee code](http://198.187.128.12/tennessee/lpext.dll?f=templates&fn=fs-main.htm&2.0): > So, yeah, the suspects can be legitimately charged under the statute with first degree murder, the whining of the sister notwithstanding. The moral of the story is don’t go along for the ride if your buddy’s gonna do some crimes. Obviously people read into things whatever they want to read becuase I can’t see any language there which would support your notion that they can be considered guilty of murder for what happened. Where do you draw the line? Suppose the cop’s car hits a utility pole which results in loss of electrical power supply to a few homes and a person with a dialisys machine dies as a consequence. Are the robbers guilty of the murder of the patient? Suppose the cop’s car hits a utility pole which results in loss of electrical power supply to a few homes and, as a consequence, a doctor’s cell phone is not working and he cannot be reached which results in a patient dying. Suppose the cop’s car hits a utility pole which results in loss of electrical power supply to a few homes and, as a consequence, a car mechanic’s cell phone is not working and he cannot be reached to repair the car of a doctor which results in a patient dying. The responsibility for the police driving recklessly rests fairly and squarely on the shoulders of the police. Chasing felons is not a license to drive recklessly or to defy the aws of physics or common sense. It is the police who should be charged with reckless driving. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killed-in-car-chase-thugs-charged-with-murder-1/201383/20 "2003-09-13T17:07:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Otto \* > \*\*From the [Tennessee code](http://198.187.128.12/tennessee/lpext.dll?f=templates&fn=fs-main.htm&2.0): > So, yeah, the suspects can be legitimately charged under the statute with first degree murder, the whining of the sister notwithstanding. The moral of the story is don’t go along for the ride if your buddy’s gonna do some crimes. \*\* As I read the law in your cite, the thieves are not guilty of murder. The police officer did not die as a result of a killing. A traffic accident due to negligent driving is not a killing. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killed-in-car-chase-thugs-charged-with-murder-1/201383.md?page=2)