# Cop killed in car chase, thugs charged with murder 1 **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 13, 2003, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killed-in-car-chase-thugs-charged-with-murder-1/201383 "2003-09-13T13:22:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2003, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killed-in-car-chase-thugs-charged-with-murder-1/201383/81 "2003-09-16T13:58:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beryl\_Mooncalf \* > What is responsible for the Death? > –The accident (?) > What is responsible for the accident? > –The pursuit of the felons (?) > What is responsible for the pursuit of the felons? > –The report of an Armed Robbery and the sighting of the car(so the officer thought) (?) > What is responsible for the Armed Robbery report? > –The three candy bar thiefs stealing candy bars? (?) > > Feel free to argue otherwise… > > It the candy bar thieves had bought them, instead of stealing them.… No, wrong. - What is responsible for the accident? - The grossly reckless actions of the cop who speeded with absolute disregard for his safety or that of others. Did you miss my earlier posts? Cops are not allowed to use deadly force under these circumstances. This cop was, in effect, using deadly force. The cop was at fault and is 100% responsible for what happened no less as if he had decided to fire at the fleeing suspects and had hit someone else by mistake. The fleeing suspects bear no responsibility that a cop does what he should not do. Is it worth risking life or limb over recovering some candy bars? The answer is NO. The cop is in the wrong and he is solely responsible for what happened. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2003, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killed-in-car-chase-thugs-charged-with-murder-1/201383/82 "2003-09-16T14:38:49Z")
OK, sorry about dragging TN law into this. Here’s the [Arkansas](http://www.arkleg.state.ar.us/NXT/gateway.dll?f=templates&fn=default.htm&vid=blr:code) statute: > [@](#): > > 5-10-102. Murder in the first degree. > (a) A person commits murder in the first degree if: > > (1) Acting alone or with one (1) or more other persons, he commits or attempts to commit a felony, and in the course of and in the furtherance of the felony or in immediate flight therefrom, he or an accomplice causes the death of any person under circumstances manifesting extreme indifference to the value of human life; or > > (2) With a purpose of causing the death of another person, he causes the death of another person; or > > (3) He knowingly causes the death of a person fourteen (14) years of age or younger at the time the murder was committed. > > (b) It is an affirmative defense to any prosecution under subdivision (a)(1) of this section for an offense in which the defendant was not the only participant that the defendant: > > (1) Did not commit the homicidal act or in any way solicit, command, induce, procure, counsel, or aid its commission; and > > (2) Was not armed with a deadly weapon; and > > (3) Reasonably believed that no other participant was armed with a deadly weapon; and > > (4) Reasonably believed that no other participant intended to engage in conduct which could result in death or serious physical injury. Theft of property valued between $500 and $2500 is a [Class C Felony](http://www.arkleg.state.ar.us/NXT/gateway.dll?f=templates&fn=default.htm&vid=blr:code) in Arkansas. So the defendants, if they committed the predicate felony of theft by stealing the candy bars and then fled, thereby causing the death of the officer by demonstrating a willful disregard for human life, they are guilty of 1st degree murder in Arkansas. The legitimacy of charging the offense should now be settled. Whether any or all of the defendants should be convicted of the charge would depend on the jury, but the _charge_ itself should not be in question at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2003, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killed-in-car-chase-thugs-charged-with-murder-1/201383/83 "2003-09-16T16:09:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beryl\_Mooncalf \* > I would be embarrassed to ask for case law references on this. Yes, but I’m not embarrassed at all. What case law should we turn to in an effort to discover the proper method of determining whether one crime is included in another, and what is the proper method to determine the answer? - Rick ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killed-in-car-chase-thugs-charged-with-murder-1/201383/84 "2003-09-17T11:47:58Z")
Apparently, this pending question slipped **Beryl\_Mooncalf** ’s mind. ---
**Author:** ![Beryl\_Mooncalf\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9f8e36/32.png) [@Beryl\_Mooncalf\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beryl_Mooncalf_1)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killed-in-car-chase-thugs-charged-with-murder-1/201383/85 "2003-09-17T13:04:09Z")
Bricker’s question > [@](#): > > What case law should we turn to in an effort to discover the proper method of determining whether one crime is included in another, and what is the proper method to determine the answer? The answer. What you have called for \*“the proper method of determining whether one crime is included in another“\ ***isn’t the province of case law.** This is because, offenses are defined, as well as the elements thereof, by the respective legislatures, and thereafter codified in the appropriate titles. Perhaps you should look in the **penal code** , where you will find _“proper method of determining whether one crime is included in another“_. The court, (your “case law definitions”) doesn’t become involved in the process unless there is a specific question regarding the statute, or a clarification needed in the application of that statute. You did say > [@](#): > > Yes, but I’m not embarrassed at all. I gave you a little courtesy and you tried to use it against me. But you had to resurrect this. ---
**Author:** ![Beryl\_Mooncalf\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9f8e36/32.png) [@Beryl\_Mooncalf\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beryl_Mooncalf_1)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killed-in-car-chase-thugs-charged-with-murder-1/201383/86 "2003-09-17T13:07:33Z")
Sailor > [@](#): > > Did you miss my earlier posts? Cops are not allowed to use deadly force under these circumstances. This cop was, in effect, using deadly force. What was the deadly force being used? ---
**Author:** ![Beryl\_Mooncalf\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9f8e36/32.png) [@Beryl\_Mooncalf\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beryl_Mooncalf_1)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killed-in-car-chase-thugs-charged-with-murder-1/201383/87 "2003-09-17T13:10:20Z")
Otto > [@](#): > > The legitimacy of charging the offense should now be settled. Whether any or all of the defendants should be convicted of the charge would depend on the jury, but the charge itself should not be in question at this point. I agree. The charges are appropriate, and the jury will ultimately decide. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killed-in-car-chase-thugs-charged-with-murder-1/201383/88 "2003-09-17T13:12:05Z")
Really? There’s no authoritive case law addressing the analysis of whether one crime is included in another, eh? So suppose I, the legislature, create two crimes: mopery and dopery. My law reads as follows: A person is guilty of mopery when, from the hours of 10 PM to 6 AM, creeps in a furtive manner on a public street, wearing substantially dark clothing. A person is guilty of dopery when he creeps in a furtive manner on a public street, wearing substantially dark clothing. You are indicted for mopery, tried, and acquitted. You are then re-indicted, based on the same act, for dopery. What is your defense, if any, and what case law might you cite in support of your position? - Rick ---
**Author:** ![Beryl\_Mooncalf\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9f8e36/32.png) [@Beryl\_Mooncalf\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beryl_Mooncalf_1)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killed-in-car-chase-thugs-charged-with-murder-1/201383/89 "2003-09-17T13:48:57Z")
Bricker, Your question, > [@](#): > > There’s no authoritive case law addressing the analysis of whether one crime is included in another, eh? Are you misreading, or misquoting my previous post? > [@](#): > > The court, (your “case law definitions”) doesn’t become involved in the process unless there is a specific question regarding the statute, or a clarification needed in the application of that statute. Mopery v. Dopery = Attempted con law hijack. - clearly, how is this relevant to whether 3 defendants should be vicariously liable for the death of an officer? Perhaps you should start your own thread. ---
**Author:** ![Beryl\_Mooncalf\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9f8e36/32.png) [@Beryl\_Mooncalf\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beryl_Mooncalf_1)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killed-in-car-chase-thugs-charged-with-murder-1/201383/90 "2003-09-17T14:09:36Z")
Bricker, My last response came across a little to sarcastic for me to leave as is. The question you posed is a good one, but I don’t believe this is the appropriate thread. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killed-in-car-chase-thugs-charged-with-murder-1/201383/91 "2003-09-17T14:11:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beryl\_Mooncalf \* > Sailor, What was the deadly force being used? I thought the whole issue was that the cop was dead which is a foreseeable consequence of his actions so I think the adjective “deadly” is no less appropriate than if he had fired into a crowd. The reason firing a gun at someone is considered “deadly” is because it is foreseeable that someone may end up, well, what word should I use. . . _dead_? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killed-in-car-chase-thugs-charged-with-murder-1/201383/92 "2003-09-17T14:46:24Z")
Fine. See me in the Pit, **Beryl\_Mooncalf** , in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=211820), helpfully entitled "[Question for Beryl\_Mooncalf"](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=211820). - Rick ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killed-in-car-chase-thugs-charged-with-murder-1/201383/93 "2003-09-17T16:58:04Z")
Sailor, the officer in this case used ‘deadly force’ in an effort to apprehend the criminals. Officers are generally justified in using deadly force to catch criminals. Should the use of justified deadly force cause death, it isn’t the officer that is culpable, it is the criminal who forced the officer’s hand. If the officer was reckless and irresponsible in the use of deadly force, you would have a point. I’m not convinced that is the case here. ---
**Author:** ![Billdo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/billdo/32/315_2.png) [@Billdo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billdo)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killed-in-car-chase-thugs-charged-with-murder-1/201383/94 "2003-09-17T17:25:34Z")
When dealing with these types of questions, I find it best to go to the actual criminal statutes. Since this apparently occurred in West Memphis, Arkansas, the Arkansas statutes should apply. The definition in Arkansas Code section [5-10-102. Murder in the first degree.](http://www.sry1.com/WebPage/Products/ACLM/ACLMOnline/170_94_58_9/nxt/gateway_dll/arcode/title03767_htm/subtitle03950_htm/chapter03951_htm/section03953_htm/f=templates%24fn=document-frame.htm%243.html#JD_5-10-102) provides (emphasis added): > [@](#): > > (a) A person commits murder in the first degree if: > > (1) Acting alone or with one (1) or more other persons, he commits or attempts to commit **a felony, and** in the course of and in the furtherance of the felony or \*\*in immediate flight therefrom, he or an accomplice causes the death \*\*of any person under circumstances manifesting extreme indifference to the value of human life; . . . Arkansas Code section [5-36-103. Theft of property.](http://www.sry1.com/WebPage/Products/ACLM/ACLMOnline/170_94_58_9/nxt/gateway_dll/arcode/title03767_htm/subtitle04144_htm/chapter04146_htm/subchapter04147/section04150_htm/f=templates%24fn=document-frame.htm%243.html#JD_5-36-103) provides: > [@](#): > > (a) A person commits theft of property if he: > > (1) Knowingly takes or exercises unauthorized control over, or makes an unauthorized transfer of an interest in, the property of another person, with the purpose of depriving the owner thereof; or > > (2) Knowingly obtains the property of another person, by deception or by threat, with the purpose of depriving the owner thereof. > > (b) . . . . (2) Theft of property is a Class C felony if: > > (A) The value of the property is less than two thousand five hundred dollars ($2,500) but more than five hundred dollars ($500); . . . Accordingly, under Arkansas law, the theft of property worth $650 would be a Class C felony. As a Class C felony, if a death occurs in a high-speed chase during the perpatrators immediate flight, the perpatrator can be charged with First Degree Murder. Whether the perpatrator will actually be found to have caused the death and whether the flight would be considered to be “under circumstances manifesting extreme indifference to the value of human life” are factual questions that would be ultimately decided by the jury. ---
**Author:** ![Billdo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/billdo/32/315_2.png) [@Billdo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billdo)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killed-in-car-chase-thugs-charged-with-murder-1/201383/95 "2003-09-17T17:30:47Z")
Or, exactly what **doreen** said (but with actual quotes of the statutes). 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Billdo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/billdo/32/315_2.png) [@Billdo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billdo)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killed-in-car-chase-thugs-charged-with-murder-1/201383/96 "2003-09-17T17:35:50Z")
And **otto** , too. (Do you think if three different people citing the same law come to the same conclusion, folks will listen? Naaaah.) ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killed-in-car-chase-thugs-charged-with-murder-1/201383/97 "2003-09-17T19:19:47Z")
Look, there are two questions here and they are not the same question. The first is: Do the facts of this case as known to us support a _charge_ of felony murder? The answer to this is pretty clearly “yes.” The perpetrators commit a felony, during the course of which, or directly after, the death of another person occurs under circumstances that justify tying the death to the actions of the perpetrators. (And just as an aside, in my state the charge of felony murder could just as easily rest on a charge of felony evasion of a police officer as the underlying felony, instead of or in addition to felony theft. This of course raises questions regarding whether anyone but the driver is actually evading, or can halt the evasion, but again is certainly enough to support the _charge_). The second question is: Should the defendants be found guilty of felony murder? This is more problematic, and it’s reasonable that some people would conclude the answer is “no” on the grounds that the cause of death was actually the failure to wear a seatbelt, not the high-speed chase. But even those who have weighed in on the “no” side should be able to see this is a very problematic argument to make: First, you are arguing that the factual cause of death was the lack of restraint and not the speed (the speed being caused by the perpetrators’ flight), or a combination of both factors, and that may be difficult to prove. Second, you are placing the blame for the death on the dead officer and not on the criminals he died attempting to apprehend – a tough sell to a jury. Is felony murder an appropriate charge under these circumstances? Yes. Should the defendants be convicted of felony murder under these circumstances? Maybe. That would depend on showing that the officer would not have been killed _but for_ his failure to wear a seatbelt – a question none of us posting to this message board have any way of knowing the answer to. The felony murder rule has been described by the court in my jurisdiction as “in for a penny, in for a pound.” If you allow yourself to to be involved in the commission of a serious crime, you will be held responsible for _all_ deaths occurring as a consequence of the crime or the flight therefrom, without regard to whether you individually did the act that caused the death or deaths. As BERYL correctly said, “The charge is appropriate and the jury will decide.” BUT . . . BERYL – > [@](#): > > What you have called for “the proper method of determining whether one crime is included in another“isn’t the province of case law. This is incorrect. Lesser included offenses are rarely explicitly set forth as such in statutes. For example, a definition of second-degree assault will differ on its face from first-degree assault, but it will rarely also say “second degree assault is a lesser-included offense of first-degree assault.” Sometimes you can tell if one charge is a LIO of another just by looking at the two – as is the case for first and second degree assault – but if there is any question regarding whether Offense A is a LIO of Offense B, the answer will be provided by a court. So it is most certainly the province of case law to determine LIOs if there is any question regarding them, and to state otherwise is simply wrong. And BERYL – the “Issue Rule Analysis Conclusion” method is indeed to preferred method for writing bar exams, but many of us are no longer writing (or grading) bar exams. We still apply the law to the facts, of course, but if we are doing our jobs correctly, we do not assume facts not in evidence. And I would respectfully add that since you were not merely wrong but wildly wrong in immediately dismissing theft as a possibly triggering felony charge, you might do well to refrain from presuming to grade the legal analyses presented. That way you will avoid the obligation to give yourself a big fat “F” on lesser-included offenses and triggering felonies. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killed-in-car-chase-thugs-charged-with-murder-1/201383/98 "2003-09-17T19:47:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cheesesteak \* > Officers are generally justified in using deadly force to catch criminals. No, I do not think so. They are _not_ allowed deadly force just to stop a criminal from fleeing. They are allowed to use deadly force to protect themselves or others. I am quite certain of this. Any lawyer thinks I’m wrong? > [@](#): > > Should the use of justified deadly force cause death, it isn’t the officer that is culpable, it is the criminal who forced the officer’s hand. If the officer is justified in using deadly force, then I agree but this is not the case at all. If the officer is in a shootout with the suspects and a stray bullet hits a bystander, then I agree because the use of deadly force was justified but this is not the case at all. > [@](#): > > If the officer was reckless and irresponsible in the use of deadly force, you would have a point. I’m not convinced that is the case here. I believe he was driving recklessly and that it was not justified by the circumstances. He paid for it with his life and it is nobody else’s fault. He could have gone slower. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killed-in-car-chase-thugs-charged-with-murder-1/201383/99 "2003-09-17T21:52:47Z")
SAILOR – > [@](#): > > I believe he was driving recklessly and that it was not justified by the circumstances. He paid for it with his life and it is nobody else’s fault. You can “believe” this as an article of faith, but I would just point out that we do not have sufficient facts to conclude it. We don’t know that he was driving recklessly, we don’t know that his actions were not justified by the circumstances, and we don’t know that no one else was at all at fault. I’m not saying you’re wrong, just that we don’t know either way. > [@](#): > > No, I do not think so. They are _not_ allowed deadly force just to stop a criminal from fleeing. They are allowed to use deadly force to protect themselves or others. I am quite certain of this. Any lawyer thinks I’m wrong? No, you’re right. IIRC, the “fleeing felon” rule that allowed an officer to use “all necessary means” to stop a suspect has been abolished in the U.S. An officer may use deadly force to stop a suspect if the officer believes the suspect poses a significant risk of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killed-in-car-chase-thugs-charged-with-murder-1/201383/100 "2003-09-17T23:14:34Z")
Sailor, I stand corrected, I chose a poor example. Of course, as Jodi pointed out > [@](#): > > An officer may use deadly force to stop a suspect if the officer believes the suspect poses a significant risk of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others. If the officer was driving recklessly, what were the criminals doing? If they were being reckless and endangering others, wouldn’t the police be charged with trying to stop them? I think the police need to follow criminals when they flee the scene of a crime. There’s something distasteful with the idea that the police should just let people flee, and not chase. It’s as if we are rewarding the criminal for being reckless and endangering others. I see it as the criminals escalated the situation to the danger zone by fleeing, and this officer died as a result of that escalation. Had they pulled over (or not robbed the store), everyone would be alive. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killed-in-car-chase-thugs-charged-with-murder-1/201383.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killed-in-car-chase-thugs-charged-with-murder-1/201383.md?page=6)