# Cop killer gets death sentence in PA-12 thumbs up to the jury! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 20, 2006, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killer-gets-death-sentence-in-pa-12-thumbs-up-to-the-jury/381115 "2006-11-20T06:50:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2006, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killer-gets-death-sentence-in-pa-12-thumbs-up-to-the-jury/381115/101 "2006-11-21T23:37:18Z")
[QUOTE=Weirddave] I said: which is a far cry from what Miller said I said: [/QUOTE] You really are the master of selective self-quotation. What you also said—and what i believe **Miller** was responding to—is this: > [@Weirddave](#): > > Lucy can wax poetic all he wants about an individual’s fundamental right to life, and I would agree with him, but where we would part company is that Lucy believes that that right is irrevocable and I do not. By one’s actions, an individual can forfeit that right. When they do, they should be strung up. There is no moral dilemma in that, and **the idea that holding people responsible for their actions somehow erodes the moral underpinnings of society is ludicrous**. In fact, the opposite is the case. The bolded section, placed as it was smack dab in the middle of a debate over the death penalty, is a direct suggestion that the death penalty is, in some cases, the only way of “holding people responsible for their actions.” It also either: a) implies that those who oppose the death penalty are somehow unconcerned with “holding people responsible for their actions.” or b) ignores the possibility that yours is not the only definition of “holding people responsible for their actions.” Either way, **Miller** ’s response was still apposite. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killer-gets-death-sentence-in-pa-12-thumbs-up-to-the-jury/381115/102 "2006-11-22T00:30:25Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] So, in other words, what I said was essentially accurate. You just wanted to nitpick over what constitutes a “heinous crime.” If you ever find yourself wondering why you have no credibility on these boards, **dave** , all you have to do is come back and look at this thread to remind yourself. Maybe you should bookmark it. [/QUOTE] Miller, I have a lot more credibility than you do, simply because I don’t change what people say and claim that my version is “essentially accurate”. You are a dishonest debater and a lying fuck as well. Mhendo: > [@](#): > > The bolded section, placed as it was smack dab in the middle of a debate over the death penalty, is a direct suggestion that the death penalty is, in some cases, the only way of “holding people responsible for their actions.” That’s exactly what I did say. In certain cases, the DP **is** the only way of holding people responsible for their actions. Nice to see that someone is capable of reading what is written rather than what they want to see. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killer-gets-death-sentence-in-pa-12-thumbs-up-to-the-jury/381115/103 "2006-11-22T01:01:04Z")
[QUOTE=Weirddave] Miller, I have a lot more credibility than you do, simply because I don’t change what people say and claim that my version is “essentially accurate”. You are a dishonest debater and a lying fuck as well. Mhendo: That’s exactly what I did say. In certain cases, the DP **is** the only way of holding people responsible for their actions. Nice to see that someone is capable of reading what is written rather than what they want to see. [/QUOTE] Others… disagree. Which is entirely the point. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killer-gets-death-sentence-in-pa-12-thumbs-up-to-the-jury/381115/104 "2006-11-22T01:13:54Z")
[QUOTE=Weirddave] Mhendo: That’s exactly what I did say. In certain cases, the DP **is** the only way of holding people responsible for their actions. Nice to see that someone is capable of reading what is written rather than what they want to see. [/QUOTE] The thing, though, is that you are factually incorrect. Holding a person in prison rather than killing him does constitute “holding him responsible for his actions,” whether or not you’d be happier seeing him dead. And the original implication of your earlier post was still that those who oppose the DP are somehow opposed to holding criminals responsible for their actions. There are times, i must admit, when i look at the crimes committed by certain people on death row, and think to myself, “Well, i don’t agree with the death penalty, but i’m not feeling too sorry for that particular guy, and won’t lose too much sleep about his execution.” Then i see debates like this, and realize that, even if i accepted that killing someone as punishment was sometimes the right thing to do (i don’t), i would still not be able to join the pro-DP side because too many people on that side appear to take far too much pleasure in the idea of killing another human being. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killer-gets-death-sentence-in-pa-12-thumbs-up-to-the-jury/381115/105 "2006-11-22T01:14:37Z")
[QUOTE=Weirddave] Miller, I have a lot more credibility than you do, simply because I don’t change what people say and claim that my version is “essentially accurate”. You are a dishonest debater and a lying fuck as well. [/QUOTE] I didn’t change what you said at all. The problem is, you clearly don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about. And I don’t just mean that in the sense of, “Offering an opinion on a subject on which you are ignorant.” I mean, you actually do not understand what the words you are using mean when used in conjunction with each other. Let alone what the words _other_ people use in conjunction with each other mean, which, judging by your response to **mhendo** , is also a major problem for you. There is absolutely no way a reasonable person would have read your post and realized that you were not talking about simple homicide. “Heinous crimes” is an entirely subjective phrase. What constitutes “heinous?” Personally, I think the taking of any human life is heinous, no matter how deserving they may be. That’s why I’m against the death penalty. If I was lying about what you posted (which would be stupid and pointless, because anyone can just scroll back up and check for themselves) I would have to have been aware what you, **Weirddave** , personally consider to be “heinous.” I made an assumption that you were talking about something vaguely related to this thread, which is about the appropriateness of the death penalty in general. You did not include any qualifiers in your first post to indicate that you were only talking about people who murder a whole lot, and not any murderer in general. I responded to your post by applying the most obvious interpretation to your words available. It’s not _my_ fault that you can’t express yourself clearly. It doesn’t make me a liar, it just makes me someone who isn’t a fucking mind reader. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killer-gets-death-sentence-in-pa-12-thumbs-up-to-the-jury/381115/106 "2006-11-22T01:15:17Z")
I don’t really see how you’ve demonstrated that a particular penalty is precisely, and exclusively, the correct means to exact accountability. The very fact of its irreversibility brings that into doubt. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killer-gets-death-sentence-in-pa-12-thumbs-up-to-the-jury/381115/107 "2006-11-22T01:20:32Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] I don’t really see how you’ve demonstrated that a particular penalty is precisely, and exclusively, the correct means to exact accountability. The very fact of its irreversibility brings that into doubt. [/QUOTE] I think this is correct. And would be even more correct (more universal) without the last sentence. The irreversibility argument becomes moot if you raise the threshold high enough. Including it is just adds noise to the issue. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killer-gets-death-sentence-in-pa-12-thumbs-up-to-the-jury/381115/108 "2006-11-22T01:23:31Z")
We already demand “beyond the shadow of a reasonable doubt”. If that standard is not sufficient, where do we go? People don’t go to eleven. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killer-gets-death-sentence-in-pa-12-thumbs-up-to-the-jury/381115/109 "2006-11-22T01:29:27Z")
**Weirddave,** I pretty much share your position on the subject, but it seems to me that Miller has a point. You did, I believe inadvertently, imply that if someone is not a proponent of the DP that he therefore is not holding someone responsible for his actions. That is obviously not the case, as life in prison is pretty serious punishment. Not punishment enough for some in my book, but it is holding the person accountable for his actions. I still think you’re correct on the DP, but this issue seems to be getting in the way. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killer-gets-death-sentence-in-pa-12-thumbs-up-to-the-jury/381115/110 "2006-11-22T01:38:53Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] We already demand “beyond the shadow of a reasonable doubt”. If that standard is not sufficient, where do we go? People don’t go to eleven. [/QUOTE] Maybe to beyond the shadow of _any_ doubt. I think that the bar for the DP, because it is irreversible, should be higher than for lesser sentences. That’s why, as I’ve stated earlier, I think we should have fewer death sentences handed down; that it should only be in cases where there is truly no doubt. I believe Scott Peterson to be a lying, evil murderer, but his conviction without a videotape or witnesses or a confession means that there is some doubt there, so I am against his death sentence. Conversely, the guy who killed the Quaker kids, I say, purge the earth of him as soon as possible. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killer-gets-death-sentence-in-pa-12-thumbs-up-to-the-jury/381115/111 "2006-11-22T02:23:52Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] I didn’t change what you said at all. The problem is, you clearly don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about. And I don’t just mean that in the sense of, “Offering an opinion on a subject on which you are ignorant.” I mean, you actually do not understand what the words you are using mean when used in conjunction with each other. Let alone what the words _other_ people use in conjunction with each other mean, which, judging by your response to **mhendo** , is also a major problem for you. There is absolutely no way a reasonable person would have read your post and realized that you were not talking about simple homicide. “Heinous crimes” is an entirely subjective phrase. What constitutes “heinous?” Personally, I think the taking of any human life is heinous, no matter how deserving they may be. That’s why I’m against the death penalty. If I was lying about what you posted (which would be stupid and pointless, because anyone can just scroll back up and check for themselves) I would have to have been aware what you, **Weirddave** , personally consider to be “heinous.” I made an assumption that you were talking about something vaguely related to this thread, which is about the appropriateness of the death penalty in general. You did not include any qualifiers in your first post to indicate that you were only talking about people who murder a whole lot, and not any murderer in general. I responded to your post by applying the most obvious interpretation to your words available. It’s not _my_ fault that you can’t express yourself clearly. It doesn’t make me a liar, it just makes me someone who isn’t a fucking mind reader. [/QUOTE] Look, Miller, I’m going to assume for a minute that you are simply not reading what I wrote. Coming on the heels of your recent posts in Cafe Society, it certainly seems like you’re trolling me, but I’m going to assume for the moment that you’re not. If you go back and reread my first post, the first line is " I think buttonjockey summed it up nicely." Right [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7983421&postcount=40) , in this thread, he posted a pretty clear list of circumstances for which the DP is appropriate. That is the basis for my definition of “heinous crimes”, and clearly negates your claim that " You did not include any qualifiers in your first post to indicate that you were only talking about people who murder a whole lot, and not any murderer in general." Clear? > [@Raygun99](#): > > Others… disagree. Which is entirely the point. Then make your case and we’ll discuss it. That’s the way these things work. I have no problem with that, that’s what I want, why else would I post my opinions here? Don’t hijack my post and then argue about your hijack. That is what I object to, and I think I’m justified in doing so. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killer-gets-death-sentence-in-pa-12-thumbs-up-to-the-jury/381115/112 "2006-11-22T02:42:50Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] …Not punishment enough for some in my book, but it is holding the person accountable for his actions… [/QUOTE] What is the point of punishment? Do we seek repentance and reform, or are we merely venting our reptile brain stem? Is vengeance a worthy goal for a man, or for a society? Have we not seen enough of the ethic of vengeance to recognize it for the savagery that it is? “An eye for an eye” is the ethic of a moral retard, more appropriate for a world of daggers and vendetta. The DP is not one extreme of a spectrum of punishment, it is a wholly different, and wholly repugnant, class of its own. It is not “more” punishment, it extinguishes punishment as it extinquishes life. Hell, if you’re so worried about a life of imprisonment being insufficient suffering to appease the brutal gods of justice, perhaps you could introduce a schedule of water boarding, or a few brisk turns on the rack? Ya know, kick it up a little. Might be difficult recruiting, ah, penance professionals to apply the techniques. At least, one hopes it would be difficult. One fears not. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killer-gets-death-sentence-in-pa-12-thumbs-up-to-the-jury/381115/113 "2006-11-22T02:53:33Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] What is the point of punishment? Do we seek repentance and reform, or are we merely venting our reptile brain stem? Is vengeance a worthy goal for a man, or for a society? Have we not seen enough of the ethic of vengeance to recognize it for the savagery that it is? “An eye for an eye” is the ethic of a moral retard, more appropriate for a world of daggers and vendetta. The DP is not one extreme of a spectrum of punishment, it is a wholly different, and wholly repugnant, class of its own. It is not “more” punishment, it extinguishes punishment as it extinquishes life. Hell, if you’re so worried about a life of imprisonment being insufficient suffering to appease the brutal gods of justice, perhaps you could introduce a schedule of water boarding, or a few brisk turns on the rack? Ya know, kick it up a little. Might be difficult recruiting, ah, penance professionals to apply the techniques. At least, one hopes it would be difficult. One fears not. [/QUOTE] Look, I understand the your position about the DP and I have no expectation of changing your mind one iota. In fact, I respect it as a morally consistent stance regarding the taking of life. I look at it from a more practical standpoint. There is a point that someone does something so heinous that they are not worthy of any consideration on our part. For some of these despicable beings, the DP would be the ultimate punishment. For others, life in a cell is perceived as worse. I don’t give a shit either way. My goal is to rid ourselves of them and not spend another dime or iota of our resources on them. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killer-gets-death-sentence-in-pa-12-thumbs-up-to-the-jury/381115/114 "2006-11-22T03:01:42Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] There is a point that someone does something so heinous that they are not worthy of any consideration on our part. [/QUOTE] I’ve always believed that we respect people’s human rights not because they _deserve_ it but because taking the “higher road” requires it. Aren’t we better than they are? I was always taught the poor behavior on the part of others did not excuse poor behavior of my own. In my opinion, a society should not be judged by how it treats the righteous but rather by the way it treats its “rejects.” ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killer-gets-death-sentence-in-pa-12-thumbs-up-to-the-jury/381115/115 "2006-11-22T03:21:49Z")
[QUOTE=Lissa] In my opinion, a society should not be judged by how it treats the righteous but rather by the way it treats its “rejects.” [/QUOTE] I basically agree with this. I think much depends on how you define rejects. Where we disagree is that I beleive that it is possible for someone to act so heinously that we do society a disservice by allowing them to be part of any measurement of that society. They are abominations, and should not be part of a normal equation. Throw them out like any aberration. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killer-gets-death-sentence-in-pa-12-thumbs-up-to-the-jury/381115/116 "2006-11-22T03:45:05Z")
**magellan01** No matter how many times you claim that I don’t understand what you wrote, and no matter how many times, you suggest for me to reread what you wrote, you don’t win. Now you say that ‘punishing’ the animal of society, is not the best way to change it. Now you just want to say it is effective. Well, explain to me what effect it will cause. Will it be a good effect? Name one society that was changed by this method that became a ‘good society’. Name one. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killer-gets-death-sentence-in-pa-12-thumbs-up-to-the-jury/381115/117 "2006-11-22T04:08:14Z")
[QUOTE=Zebra] Now you say that ‘punishing’ the animal of society, is not the best way to change it. Now you just want to say it is effective. Well, explain to me what effect it will cause. Will it be a good effect? Name one society that was changed by this method that became a ‘good society’. Name one. [/QUOTE] To be accurate, I simply corrected your claiming that I said it was the best. I didn’t. I also didn’t say it is _not_ the best way. I’ve been mum on the “best” way. Why? Because I do not know what the “best” way is. I have claimed that punishment which is both swift and consistent can be used to alter behavior. These are basic tenets of behavior modification. The effect that I foresee, if the DP, when appropriate, were to be carried out swiftly and consistently, would be fewer crimes being committed worthy of the death penalty. Now, I’ll add that I am talking about those situations that now qualify for the DP. If I could have my way, there would be much fewer DP sentences handed down. Why? Because I want to raise the bar. But until that were to happen, I stand by my position. I cannot name one society as an example. That does not negate my point. If you think it does, you are wrong. I offered up some isolated “mini-societies” where I would think we’d see the effects I predict, but you seem intent on misconstruing the point of them. Again, as I’ve stated repeatedly, the foundation for my position is behavior modification theory. What would work “best” for society? I don’t know. But I would be pretty sure that the tenets of BM would apply in large part. ---
**Author:** ![Testy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c37758/32.png) [@Testy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Testy)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2006, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killer-gets-death-sentence-in-pa-12-thumbs-up-to-the-jury/381115/118 "2006-11-22T10:24:06Z")
[QUOTE=Lissa] If I believed that, I’d cancel my membership. Since I’ve been posting here, I’ve changed my opinions on a couple of issues based on being exposed to more facts and convincing arguments. I like to believe that everyone has the same flexibility, otherwise, why do any of us bother? [/quote] **Lissa** , please don’t do anything so drastic, I for one, enjoy your posts. I too have changed my mind on many things due to exposure to different ideas and opinions on the board. OTOH, I’ve never seen anyone change their mind on the DP, abortion, and a few other things. I think **His4Ever** publicly changed his/her mind a bit on certain religious issues but aside from that most people are stuck on that one as well. People may in fact make radical changes to their position on these kinds of issues, but I must say I haven’t noticed it. > [@](#): > > You don’t really want my _moral philosophy_ do you? Let’s just say I’m one of those folks who believe that policy should show some sort of benefit in order to be supportable. Well, I feel that I **am** benefited by the DP. If the victim of a crime like this is someone associated with me I want to feel that justice was done. I frankly don’t feel that way when they simply lock the guy up somewhere. > [@](#): > > As it stands, the death penalty is cumbersome and pointless. (Putting aside the expense issue because a good whack with the “rare cancer” stick can cost an equal amount to treat.) It takes up way too much of our court system’s valuable time. From _voire dire_ all the way to the appeals process, it’s a time sink for everyone involved and our system is over-burdened already. > > It also may have a[brutalization effect.](http://www.cs.technion.ac.il/~erelsgl/tokxot/onj_mwt/mxqr_hrtaa_1.html) (Though as far as I’m concerned, the jury’s still out on this one.) > > So, it’s a time-wasting process which may actually have the opposite intended effect and it lumps us in with countries like Iran and China (who aren’t exactly famous for their support of human rights.) \ [/QUOTE] Well, I certainly agree with you on the “as it stands” and “overburdened” parts of your post but (as I pointed out above) disagree with your statement that it is “pointless.” Take this guy for instance. He shot that cop beyond any shadow of a doubt yet will go to appeal after appeal for the next few years. The state will feed and house him and pay for his lawyers all that time. This is more a problem with **implementation** than with the DP itself. There is no good reason to keep this guy around for the next decade while the citizens picks up the tab. So, if you want to argue that the DP is a bad thing because the **implementation** is flawed, I think we might have common ground there. As to the 'overburdened" part; for one reason or another, the US locks-up a large percentage of their population. Maybe someone should look into why the system is “overburdened” and either stop locking-up so many people or hire more judges. As far as lumping us in with China and Iran, (and Saudi and a few other places) I’m not sure I can agree. Granted, the State in those places can kill someone for certain reasons but the US has very little else in common with the places you mention. I agree that certain places have the DP but I don’t think this is a valid comparison. Regards Testy [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-killer-gets-death-sentence-in-pa-12-thumbs-up-to-the-jury/381115.md?page=5)