# Cop shoot, kills teen after he skips out on check at IHOP **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 28, 2006, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478 "2006-02-28T17:38:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2006, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/201 "2006-03-01T23:00:07Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > Of course. And in a case where it’s he-said-she said, you can’t really believe either one so that can’t be enough to make a determination sans other evidence. And yet you are convinced the teens are criminals who are better off dead. Mallethead. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2006, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/202 "2006-03-01T23:03:30Z")
> [@wring](#): > > check again asshole. Not in my state they aren’t, and I’d be willing to bet not in yours either. But you’ve just admitted (essentially) that you have, indeed made purchases out of state for items that were intended for use in your state w/o paying use tax. > > Theif. Yeah, I don’t have my “complete tax code for all 50 states” handy but in the commonwealth of Virginia you only have to register to pay the use tax if you qualify as a “dealer” as spelled out in the code. Casual purchases don’t have to be reported. And by the way, when I said “typically” that was an admission that it isn’t that way everywhere, which makes your entire post a stupid misunderstanding. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2006, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/203 "2006-03-01T23:07:13Z")
> [@wring](#): > > check again asshole. Not in my state they aren’t, and I’d be willing to bet not in yours either. But you’ve just admitted (essentially) that you have, indeed made purchases out of state for items that were intended for use in your state w/o paying use tax. > > Theif. Furthermore in Virginia even if I was one of the people who was required to pay the use tax on internet sales and purchases then it isn’t a criminal matter, I’d be assessed a penalty on my taxes, not charged with a crime. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2006, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/204 "2006-03-01T23:07:18Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > Yeah, I don’t have my “complete tax code for all 50 states” handy but in the commonwealth of Virginia you only have to register to pay the use tax if you qualify as a “dealer” as spelled out in the code. Casual purchases don’t have to be reported. > > And by the way, when I said “typically” that was an admission that it isn’t that way everywhere, which makes your entire post a stupid misunderstanding. are you claiming that you’ve always cataloged such purchase then, to insure that you indeed didn’t go over the limit? Theif. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2006, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/205 "2006-03-01T23:08:50Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > Furthermore in Virginia even if I was one of the people who was required to pay the use tax on internet sales and purchases then it isn’t a criminal matter, I’d be assessed a penalty on my taxes, not charged with a crime. really? you’re claiming tax fraud is not a crime. (it still, however would be a theft to your state) theif. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2006, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/206 "2006-03-01T23:09:31Z")
> [@wring](#): > > are you claiming that you’ve always cataloged such purchase then, to insure that you indeed didn’t go over the limit? Theif. It isn’t a matter of a limit. > [@](#): > > Any individual, firm, organization or business that meets the definition of “dealer” as set forth in Virginia law and regulations. A dealer is generally defined as a person or business engaged in the business of selling at retail or distributing tangible personal property in Virginia. The definition also applies to dealers who rent, lease or furnish items that are subject to the tax in Virginia, or who stores such items for use or consumption in Virginia. Virginia dealers register for sales tax accounts, and out-of-state dealers register for use tax accounts. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2006, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/207 "2006-03-01T23:11:05Z")
> [@wring](#): > > really? you’re claiming tax fraud is not a crime. (it still, however would be a theft to your state) > > theif. Tax fraud is a crime because it is deliberate effort to withhold taxes. If it’s a genuine mistake (and typically it isn’t difficult for the government agency in quesiton to tell the difference between a mistake and an intentional fraud) based on misunderstanding it isn’t a crime but a mistake with filing. Filing mistakes typically mean you have to pay higher taxes but typically do not mean you will be charged with a crime (because it isn’t a crime.) And anyways, I’ve already explained to you that you are quite mistaken about the use tax and how it is applied in Virginia. ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2006, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/208 "2006-03-01T23:16:07Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > Speeding isn’t criminal I’ll be sure to bust out this defense the next time I get pulled over. Anyway, back to trying to deal with reasonable people instead of numbnut psychopaths like **Mr. Hyde** , we’ll have to look at the forensic evidence of the bulletholes in the SUV, I think, to figure this one out. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2006, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/209 "2006-03-01T23:22:10Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > Tax fraud is a crime because it is deliberate effort to withhold taxes. If it’s a genuine mistake (and typically it isn’t difficult for the government agency in quesiton to tell the difference between a mistake and an intentional fraud) based on misunderstanding it isn’t a crime but a mistake with filing. Filing mistakes typically mean you have to pay higher taxes but typically do not mean you will be charged with a crime (because it isn’t a crime.) > > And anyways, I’ve already explained to you that you are quite mistaken about the use tax and how it is applied in Virginia. [theif and wrong](http://www.tax.virginia.gov/site.cfm?alias=BusinessFAQ2#sales) > [@](#): > > Consumer’s Use Tax > What is consumer’s use tax? > Consumer’s use tax is the “other half” of the Virginia retail sales and use tax requirements. \*\*Typically, you incur the consumer’s use tax if you made more than $100 in purchases during the year for which you did not pay sales tax. \*\*Common instances of these types of transactions are purchases from the Internet, mail-order catalogues and cable television shopping channels. The tax also applies to tax-free purchases you make outside of Virginia, such as buying furniture at an outlet in another state and having it shipped to Virginia. The tax is 4.5% (5% as of 9/1/04) of the cost of regular non-food purchases and 4% on purchases of food for home consumption. Report the tax by filing Form CU-7 by May 1 each year, or by reporting it on Schedule ADJ, line 23. Top (bolding added) so unless you’re claiming that you’ve **never** made more than one hundred dollars in internet and catalog orders in any year, you, indeed, are a theif. Naturally, you’ve kept careful records of all such purchases to insure that you’ve never made more than 100$ in purchases. theif. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2006, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/210 "2006-03-01T23:36:45Z")
“Thief,” **wring**. It’s spelled “thief.” (Sorry for the utterly trivial nitpick, but much like a steering wheel in the pants of a pirate, it’s been driving me nuts. Great posts otherwise.) ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2006, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/211 "2006-03-01T23:41:00Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > “Thief,” **wring**. It’s spelled “thief.” > > (Sorry for the utterly trivial nitpick, but much like a steering wheel in the pants of a pirate, it’s been driving me nuts. Great posts otherwise.) thanks, **Miller,** - my parents always loved the fact that during intensive testing while in middle school, the results showed that I was in the 95+ percentile in nearly all of the 14 measurements - the most notable exception was 47th percentile in Spelling. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2006, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/212 "2006-03-01T23:52:32Z")
As I said in the other thread, and son-of-a-bitch who believs that $26 worth of pancakes are worth a man’s life is completely, utterly worthless. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2006, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/213 "2006-03-01T23:59:49Z")
Did I miss it? Ok, maybe not. So here I go again with more feeling… Does anyone know if the kid has been verified as a thief? If not, wouldn’t it be even more heinous than it already is to have shot him over $26 in pancakes?? Certainly if he’d been something like, I dunno, asleep in the car, walking down to Taco Hell, chatting with his girlfriend on his cell, reading a magazine. ☹ It’s Og awful no matter what, but if he truly were a bystander in the above sense (and not an accomplice) then the officer needs to have more done to him than I’d care to repeat out loud. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2006, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/214 "2006-03-02T00:37:05Z")
> [@wring](#): > > [theif and wrong](http://www.tax.virginia.gov/site.cfm?alias=BusinessFAQ2#sales) > (bolding added) > so unless you’re claiming that you’ve **never** made more than one hundred dollars in internet and catalog orders in any year, you, indeed, are a theif. Naturally, you’ve kept careful records of all such purchases to insure that you’ve never made more than 100$ in purchases. > > theif. 1. Still not a criminal matter. To be a criminal matter there would have to be evidence that I deliberately mislead the government, if it’s a mistake I have to pay a tax penalty, it is not considered a crime. 2. It is also not theft if there isn’t the intentional aspects involved. Read almost any statute on what constitutes larceny and what does not. If I walk out of someone’s house with their jacket on, which looks identical to mine, because I thought it was mine, I’m not a thief. Also, no, I don’t think I’ve ever spent more than $100 in a single calendar year on internet orders for which I didn’t pay tax. So you’re wrong. Nice playing with you, though. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2006, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/215 "2006-03-02T00:45:08Z")
I’m even more sure I’ve never violated the tax code in this manner now that I’ve read the specifics. It has to be over $100 in _tangible_ goods (a lot of what I buy being intangible in nature over the internet) and also doesn’t include magazine or newspaper subscriptions or shipping and handling charges. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2006, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/216 "2006-03-02T00:46:07Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > As I said in the other thread, and son-of-a-bitch who believs that $26 worth of pancakes are worth a man’s life is completely, utterly worthless. Has **anybody** said this? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2006, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/217 "2006-03-02T00:58:57Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > Has **anybody** said this? **Martin** ’s come pretty damn close. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2006, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/218 "2006-03-02T01:43:01Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > Has **anybody** said this? Yes. > [@](#): > > And I woud still not mourn for the kid because the kid was a criminal, and I don’t mourn for scumbags even if the manner in which they died was reprehensible (see Jeffrey Dahmer.) Martin’s complete lack of sympathy for a dead teenager (whom he’s tried to compare to both John Gotti and Jeffrey Dahmer :rolleyes: ) directly implies that he thinks that the cop was perfectly justified in shooting the kid dead over a stack of pancakes. There has, after all, not been any evidence that the cop was in any danger at all. So yes, Martin has directly implied the above. To say otherwise is disingenuous. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2006, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/219 "2006-03-02T01:47:32Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Yes.Martin’s complete lack of sympathy for a dead teenager (whom he’s tried to compare to both John Gotti and Jeffrey Dahmer :rolleyes: ) directly implies that he thinks that the cop was perfectly justified in shooting the kid dead over a stack of pancakes. There has, after all, not been any evidence that the cop was in any danger at all. So yes, Martin has directly implied the above. To say otherwise is disingenuous. No, police officers shouldn’t be judge, jury, and executioner. They should only shoot to protect others or themselves, period. I’ve never said a single thing contradictory to that. I’ve simply said that whatever happened, even if the cop was acting inappropriately, that doesn’t change the _fact_ that one less criminal in society isn’t a bad thing. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2006, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/220 "2006-03-02T01:59:09Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > I’ve simply said that whatever happened, even if the cop was acting inappropriately, that doesn’t change the _fact_ that one less criminal in society isn’t a bad thing. One less deluded asshole in society isn’t a bad thing either, but i don’t think you should be shot. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478.md?page=12)