# Cop shoot, kills teen after he skips out on check at IHOP **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 28, 2006, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478 "2006-02-28T17:38:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2006, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/461 "2006-06-20T04:59:58Z")
[QUOTE=adopted] Yeah - but the point is Rick, he RAN across a carpark and infront of a fast moving vehicle, seemingly giving it little time to stop (one would assume that with plenty of time to stop also equals plenty of time for Stowe to see it wouldn’t and get out of way) Stopping somebody on foot, or stopping them before they leave the restaurant - not life threatening for Stowe, so no need to pull out gun. IF they had been stopped in the restaurant, one takes a swing at Stowe, Stowe pulls gun I do not have problem. Where I do have problem is when he stands in middle of road in game of chicken ( and this is how it started) and then uses this as justification to pull gun - I don’t doubt he feared for his life, but he never should have put himself into that position in the first place. Now did he do something criminal? - PROBABLY not, could he have handled the situation much much better - I think so. Also could the driver have behaved better - CERTAINLY. It’s just that choosing between a trained police officer and a teenager, who is better able to assess the situation and act rationally - I would go with the police officer - I don’t beleive it happened in this case [/QUOTE] For fuck’s sake will you drop the ran in front of a fast moving vehicle strawman. Go back and [read page 25 of the report](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/metro/daily/061306/investigation.pdf) and then look at the pictures at the end. The parking lot is two lanes wide. The officer was at or near the center of the entire driveway, NOT in middle of the exit lane. The only people who said he was in front of the car are the teenagers that the report proved have been lying their asses off trying to cover them. About Officer Stowe getting out of the way, yes he had plenty of time until the driver made him a target, and swerved toward him. :wally About your comment about why didn’t he go between cars. You know that when you are running for your life trying to keep your eyes on the car that is about to kill you, you might not hit that gap between cars just right. ---
**Author:** ![adopted](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e79b87/32.png) [@adopted](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adopted)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2006, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/462 "2006-06-20T05:03:10Z")
Actually none of the above. 1. Stowe didn’t give himself time enough to get out of the way - or he would never have needed to pull a gun 2. RUNNING across a car park, and in front of a Jeep, driven by an inexperienced driver 3. If indeed the driver was deliberatly aiming for Stowe - has he been charged with attempted murder, or anything else? (I haven’t seen, but doesn’t mean it didn’t happen) 4. Stowe jumped / ran in front of a moving vehicle when it was no more than 120 ft away - this is not “plenty of time”, at least one of the witnesses says the jeep was fishtailing - which is consistent with other evidence, which makes it harder for Stowe to determine where it was going 5. SECURITY GUARDS IN IHOPS SHOULDN’T BE CARRYING GUNS. And if they are they shouldn’t use them on fleeing cars. And I don’t buy into the arguement abt the driver putting Stowe in danger, Stowe never NEEDED to stand in front of the Jeep in the first place, if he wasn’t standing in front of the Jeep, the driver never would have “driven at him” so the gun never needed to leave holster. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2006, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/463 "2006-06-20T05:47:56Z")
Garfield & galt: I think he’s both stupid and illiterate. Look, adopted, try to understand the basics of what’s been presented to you factually. Stowe wasn’t standing in front of the thing until the driver SWERVED TO AIM AT HIM. Got it? Or do you actually think the real world operates like it does in a cartoon? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2006, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/464 "2006-06-20T05:50:27Z")
My friend, if you really are **adopted** , you need to look into whether your birth mother was smoking crack during her pregnancy. ---
**Author:** ![adopted](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e79b87/32.png) [@adopted](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adopted)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2006, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/465 "2006-06-20T06:02:15Z")
1. Waiter says the cheque not paid while people are still at the table??? (quote from report) - chance for early intervention, how the hell could he know the cheque wasn’t paid before everyone left? What sort of procedures do they have 2. Quote from Stowe - “went to the middle of the drive area” …that would have to be infront of the Jeep, would it not? Remember this is a carpark, not a four lane highway… ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2006, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/466 "2006-06-20T06:08:15Z")
> [@](#): > > … if the driver was trying to kill him… > [@](#): > > …If a cop is attempting to apprehend a suspected dangerous criminal, in this case one who has attempted murder (according the the officer) he does not simply let them go to wreck havoc amongst society. His duty to society is to retard this criminal at all costs… > [@](#): > > …There is more than enough evidence here to support the assertion that the cop feared for his life, and that he thought that shooting at the oncoming vehicle was the only appropriate response… > [@](#): > > …Is attempting to run down a person who’s on foot not nefarious? Interesting… > [@](#): > > …This shooting is not over unpaid pancakes, it is about attempted murder by the driver of the van…Assault with a deadly weapon (the Jeep) is not non-violent. Duh. So in your words just trying to run the officer over isn’t enough to justify deadly force. They had to run his ass over before he would be justified in using his weapon?..Yeah right. Go take a reading comprehension course, re read the report with an open mind and come back… > [@](#): > > …Attempted Murder is not a petty crime. Apparently the law provides that lethal force is appropriate in protecting oneself from a murder attempt. Check-jumping isn’t the cop’s motivation; it was the motivation of the individual attempting murder… > [@](#): > > …So, you’re saying he should’ve expected to have someone try to murder him for going into the parking lot?..once again, he did not put himself into the situation. The guy trying to murder him did that… Hmm, the driver was trying to kill him, he’s a dangerous criminal who attempted murder. There’s a duty to society to retard(?) this criminal at all costs. There’s more than enough evidence to charge the driver with attempted murder and assault with a deadly weapon. Surely this evil man will be indicted, tried and convicted? Why look, we even have witnesses and a confession, > [@](#): > > …Three of the five people in the van said it looked like the driver was going to hit the cop. One of them said, “It looked like he was almost steering straight into him.” One of them screamed, “Oh my God, you are going to kill this cop!” In his first interview, the DRIVER said it was reasonable that the officer felt that his life was threatened… [ > [@](#): > > Smith {Stephen J. Smith the driver}, who Sengel {Commonwealth Attorney S. Randolph Sengel} said will not be charged in the shooting incident, was charged with marijuana possession and underage possession of alcohol. He pleaded guilty Monday and was sentenced to six months’ probation and 75 hours of community service. ]([http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/13/AR2006061301550\_2.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/13/AR2006061301550_2.html))[RIGHT]{DarkRed}=CMC[/RIGHT] If it’s so clear that Smith was trying to kill Stowe, why no charges? They don’t just let you walk away from attempted murder charges, especially when it’s a cop you tried to kill, do they? [WAG]Unless it’s clear to the prosecutor that there’s no case, and trying Smith would make Stowe’s defense for the shooting unsupportable?[/WAG] CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2006, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/467 "2006-06-20T13:57:56Z")
[QUOTE=adopted] 1. Waiter says the cheque not paid while people are still at the table??? (quote from report) - chance for early intervention, how the hell could he know the cheque wasn’t paid before everyone left? What sort of procedures do they have 2. Quote from Stowe - “went to the middle of the drive area” …that would have to be infront of the Jeep, would it not? Remember this is a carpark, not a four lane highway… [/QUOTE] In reverse order: I will type this slowly so just maybe you will understand. 2)Take for example the street in front of my house. Two lanes each way, with a double yellow line between the two center lanes. If I stand on the double yellow line, I am not directly in front of any of the cars. While I am in danger of being hit by a mirror, I am not (or should not) be in fear of a car hitting me head on since they would have to leave their lane to do so. Now if a driver swerves to their left, my life is now in serious danger. So standing in the middle of the road != directly in front of an oncomming car. 1. I am guessing that from experience when they see a table full of teenagers start drifting out the door one or two at a time, there is a possibility of a dine and dash. Again I am guessing that the waitress saw most of the party leave, and the bill still on the table. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2006, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/468 "2006-06-20T14:19:51Z")
There is one part that completely does not add up. Say you are standing off to the side in parking lot and a car swerves at you. Do you – A. Do your best to move the hell out of the way? B. Draw your gun in the hopes that your 150 gram bullet will stop 2 tons of car before it hits you. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2006, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/469 "2006-06-20T14:45:02Z")
[QUOTE=crowmanyclouds] Hmm, the driver was trying to kill him, he’s a dangerous criminal who attempted murder. There’s a duty to society to retard(?) this criminal at all costs. There’s more than enough evidence to charge the driver with attempted murder and assault with a deadly weapon. Surely this evil man will be indicted, tried and convicted? Why look, we even have witnesses and a confession, [url=[http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/13/AR2006061301550\_2.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/13/AR2006061301550_2.html)][RIGHT]{DarkRed}=CMC[/RIGHT] If it’s so clear that Smith was trying to kill Stowe, why no charges? They don’t just let you walk away from attempted murder charges, especially when it’s a cop you tried to kill, do they? [WAG]Unless it’s clear to the prosecutor that there’s no case, and trying Smith would make Stowe’s defense for the shooting unsupportable?[/WAG] CMC fnord! [/QUOTE] It will be interesting to see if your questions will be intelligently answered. I won’t hold my breath. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2006, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/470 "2006-06-20T14:59:27Z")
[QUOTE=enipla] There is one part that completely does not add up. Say you are standing off to the side in parking lot and a car swerves at you. Do you – A. Do your best to move the hell out of the way? B. Draw your gun in the hopes that your 150 gram bullet will stop 2 tons of car before it hits you. [/QUOTE] C) All of the above (which is exactly what the officer did) ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2006, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/471 "2006-06-20T15:05:19Z")
[QUOTE=Rick] C) All of the above (which is exactly what the officer did) [/QUOTE] Yeah, I suppose. I guess he must have already had his gun drawn, which seems to be a little over the top. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2006, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/472 "2006-06-20T16:39:19Z")
> [@CMC](#): > > If it’s so clear that Smith was trying to kill Stowe, why no charges? > They don’t just let you walk away from attempted murder charges, especially when it’s a cop you tried to kill, do they? I’m not the prosecutor, so I can’t say for sure, but couldn’t it just be prosecutorial disgression? Maybe they just want this to go away. Reading the Wa. Post the other day, it was evident that many Post readers don’t lurk on the SDMB as about three fourths of the letters on this repeated the “kids killed over pancakes” theme. The driver will have to deal with his actions causing the death of his friend. Maybe they thought they could leave it at that, especially since attempted murder would be hard to prove. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2006, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/473 "2006-06-20T16:48:36Z")
[QUOTE=Rick] C) All of the above (which is exactly what the officer did) [/QUOTE] You forgot the last step: D) Continue firing at the car after it goes by you, because you just can’t help it. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2006, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/474 "2006-06-20T17:27:15Z")
[QUOTE=Larry Borgia] I’m not the prosecutor, so I can’t say for sure, but couldn’t it just be prosecutorial disgression? Maybe they just want this to go away. Maybe they thought they could leave it at that, especially since attempted murder would be hard to prove. [/QUOTE] That’s a big “if”. But if that’s the case the prosecutor should lose his job. I can’t see how the cop was justified in using lethal force if the action of the driver wasn’t prosecutable. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2006, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/475 "2006-06-20T17:29:50Z")
[QUOTE=CBEscapee] That’s a big “if”. But if that’s the case the prosecutor should lose his job. I can’t see how the cop was justified in using lethal force if the action of the driver wasn’t prosecutable. [/QUOTE] Why? ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2006, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/476 "2006-06-20T18:56:32Z")
[QUOTE=Larry Borgia] Why? [/QUOTE] Because it assumes the prosecutor has such discretionary powers. Can a prosecutor that easily decide to not prosecute a crime of that nature because he “just wants it to go away”? Doesn’t he have an obligation to the public to prosecute if there is enough evidence a crime was commited? Attempted murder or asault with a deadly weapon etc. are pretty serious crimes to not prosecute. Or would it more likely be that there was not enough proof of attempted murder to be able to prosecute? Or a public trial could possibly negatively impact the investigation’s conclusions? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2006, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/477 "2006-06-20T19:55:54Z")
[QUOTE=CBEscapee] Because it assumes the prosecutor has such discretionary powers. Can a prosecutor that easily decide to not prosecute a crime of that nature because he “just wants it to go away”? Doesn’t he have an obligation to the public to prosecute if there is enough evidence a crime was commited? Attempted murder or asault with a deadly weapon etc. are pretty serious crimes to not prosecute. Or would it more likely be that there was not enough proof of attempted murder to be able to prosecute? Or a public trial could possibly negatively impact the investigation’s conclusions? [/QUOTE] There’s a huge difference between what the prosecutor would have to prove to get an attempted murder conviction and what Officer Stowe had to show to justify using deadly force in his own defence. Intent, for one thing. Also–and IANAL or P so board lawyers correct me if I’m wrong–but I believe prosecutors can decline to prosecute in the interests of justice. The officer wasn’t harmed; one of the driver’s friends was killed; The driver was a panicky teen, not a hardened criminal. What would be served by prosecuting this case? ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2006, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/478 "2006-06-20T20:28:34Z")
[QUOTE=Larry Borgia] There’s a huge difference between what the prosecutor would have to prove to get an attempted murder conviction and what Officer Stowe had to show to justify using deadly force in his own defence. Intent, for one thing. Also–and IANAL or P so board lawyers correct me if I’m wrong–but I believe prosecutors can decline to prosecute in the interests of justice. The officer wasn’t harmed; one of the driver’s friends was killed; The driver was a panicky teen, not a hardened criminal. What would be served by prosecuting this case? [/QUOTE] I am merely a (to be) law student with a paralegal education. However, I feel confident in my belief that, as you indicated, intent was the key factor. I’m sure it was determined by pertinent legal authorities that Smith was attempting to flee, not commit homocide. He _was_ [charged with crimes.](http://http://www.examiner.com/a-134155~Driver_in_Alexandria_IHOP_shooting_given_community_service.html) > [@](#): > > The driver of an SUV involved in a deadly shooting by an off-duty Alexandria police officer outside a local restaurant was given community service and had his license suspended Monday. > > Stephen J. Smith, 19, of Alexandria, was convicted of possession of marijuana and an additional alcohol-related charge stemming from the Feb. 25 incident. Also, the charges were reduced via plea. Reduced from what I do not know. Possibly reckless driving or reckless endangerment. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2006, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/479 "2006-06-20T21:08:07Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Hmm, the driver was trying to kill him, he’s a dangerous criminal who attempted murder. There’s a duty to society to retard(?) this criminal at all costs. There’s more than enough evidence to charge the driver with attempted murder and assault with a deadly weapon. > > Surely this evil man will be indicted, tried and convicted? > … > If it’s so clear that Smith was trying to kill Stowe, why no charges? > They don’t just let you walk away from attempted murder charges, especially when it’s a cop you tried to kill, do they? > [WAG]Unless it’s clear to the prosecutor that there’s no case, and trying Smith would make Stowe’s defense for the shooting unsupportable?[/WAG] My **guess** (although I think you raise an excellent point) is that the burden is different. The cop didn’t have to be _correct_ that he was in mortal peril, he had to have a reasonable _belief_ that he or someone else could die if he didn’t shoot. For the sake of argument, if you accept that he truly believed, and it was not absurd, that the guy was trying to kill him, but at the same time, you see there’s no possible way you could prove beyond a reasonable doubt that that’s what was actually in the driver’s mind, then the prosecutor would be wasting tax dollars pursuing it. In other words, it’s one of those frustrating, “I don’t know what the fuck happened” situations. You side on the presumption of cop’s innocence, and on the side of the driver’s. FWIW, I think the cop was poorly trained and/or full of shit to fire, and keep firing as the van passed. ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2006, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/480 "2006-06-20T21:48:22Z")
[QUOTE=crowmanyclouds] There’s a duty to society to \*\*retard(?) \*\* this criminal at all costs. [/QUOTE] [Word of many definitions](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/retard) > [@](#): > > A slowing down or hindering of progress; a delay. **emphasis addes** [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478.md?page=25)