# Cop shoot, kills teen after he skips out on check at IHOP **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 28, 2006, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478 "2006-02-28T17:38:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Garfield226](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Garfield226](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garfield226)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2006, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/61 "2006-02-28T22:45:45Z")
> [@nyctea scandiaca](#): > > If petty theft, smoking pot (or associating with someone who does), and drinking alcohol (or associating with someone who does) makes him a “bad kid,” despite all his other talents and accomplishments, then I bet a huge majority of American 18-year-olds are “bad kids.” And I bet a huge majority of American cops are pretty good guys too. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2006, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/62 "2006-02-28T22:49:16Z")
> [@Garfield226](#): > > And I bet a huge majority of American cops are pretty good guys too. I am sure they are. Except for this one, he fucked up big time. ---
**Author:** ![cowgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cowgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cowgirl)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2006, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/63 "2006-02-28T23:02:03Z")
> [@Garfield226](#): > > (note for the overreactionaries: it ought to go without saying that none of that justifies the death. Duh. But for some of you it wouldn’t so I’ve said it.) … so, why bring it up? I’m afraid I don’t see the relevance. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2006, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/64 "2006-02-28T23:09:35Z")
In the video (and perhaps someone in all the articles that I’ve overlooked), it said that there was six people in the car. Does that mean that all of them ate, but only three ditched the bill? Or did the others stay in the car/go somewhere else? How do we know for sure that the boy killed was actually one of the participants in theft of a meal? Has there been a witness quoted anywhere? ---
**Author:** ![Garfield226](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Garfield226](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garfield226)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2006, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/65 "2006-02-28T23:13:27Z")
So let’s break this down: Some kids intentionally steal food. At least one of them has been drinking and is in possesion of marijuana. So at least one committed three crimes on the same evening, and according to one of them, they intentionally stole the food. These details are certain. But they’re not bad kids. Heavens no. Then the details are fuzzy. The cop gets in front of a vehicle that may or may not have been moving, the kids may or may not have tried to run him down, he may or may not have had room to dive out of the way, they may or may not have threatened him on the way to their vehicle, he may or may not have known they had been drinking or smoking pot, etc. and yet (and this is the part that’s strange to me), we’re SURE he did something wrong. He HAD to. He MUST have. We KNOW what the kids did wrong, and we know virtually NOTHING for certain about the “showdown” between the vehicle and the cop, but the cop is DEFINITELY at fault here. Or, you know, we could be _reasonable_. ---
**Author:** ![Garfield226](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Garfield226](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garfield226)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2006, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/66 "2006-02-28T23:14:34Z")
> [@cowgirl](#): > > … so, why bring it up? I’m afraid I don’t see the relevance. Because someone said “by all accounts these were not bad kids.” I disagree with that statement, and wished to clarify it. ---
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2006, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/67 "2006-02-28T23:21:52Z")
Correct me if I am wrong: Since when is stealing $26 worth of food justification for lethal force? (barring Les Mis of course). If someone comes into my house and steals a couple of my Omaha steaks I would not be allowed to shoot him/her would I? ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2006, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/68 "2006-02-28T23:25:45Z")
Who cares if they were bad kids or not? This is a silly point to argue. I think everyone is in agreement that a dine and ditch at IHOP is not deserving of lethal force. ---
**Author:** ![Garfield226](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Garfield226](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garfield226)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2006, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/69 "2006-02-28T23:25:49Z")
> [@sinjin](#): > > Correct me if I am wrong: Since when is stealing $26 worth of food justification for lethal force? (barring Les Mis of course). If someone comes into my house and steals a couple of my Omaha steaks I would not be allowed to shoot him/her would I? Who is arguing that stealing food is justification for the death? The cop is saying his personal safety was threatened. And actually, I believe in some jurisdictions, if someone breaks into your house for any reason at all, you are allowed to shoot him. If you find someone you have invited over has slipped a sausage or two into his suitcase, that’s probably a different story, however. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2006, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/70 "2006-02-28T23:31:36Z")
A semi hijack but related: Does anyone know what happened in the case a couple weeks ago where the cop shot a military man when he was on the ground and obeying the officer’s commands and it was call captured on tape? ---
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2006, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/71 "2006-02-28T23:35:53Z")
> [@Garfield226](#): > > Actually, I believe in some jurisdictions, if someone breaks into your house for any reason at all, you are allowed to shoot him. I’m quite sure this is not correct in most of the US. If you’ld like I will search for a cite. But, I could be wrong; so lawyer people out there let me know. If someone steals a loaf of bread from me, I then put myself in what I believe is lethal danger to stop them from making off with my loaf of bread, am I then justified in killing them? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2006, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/72 "2006-02-28T23:36:34Z")
> [@lavenderviolet](#): > > Wow, what a horrible, horrible story. I feel sad for everyone involved, especially the kid’s parents. It would destroy me if someone I loved died over such a trivial thing. > It’s safe to say the cop totally over-reacted. Still, that doesn’t mean he’s an evil person. > > I can definitely see how, if he was angry at the kids and not really thinking straight, a person might act impulsively by throwing himself in front of the car…then panic and draw his gun when the car kept coming. Cops are just people like all of us, and a lot of people make stupid mistakes during emotional moments. I’m sure a few people on this board have also tried to stop someone from leaving by standing in their car’s way, and a few of us have probably also been in situations where we would have shot someone over something stupid if we had happened to have a gun at the time. > Obviously I’m not saying it’s justifiable; just that I understand how such a thing could happen. ☹ I’ll bet the cop probably feels awful about shooting the kid now that he has had time to actually think about what he did. What a terrible way for so many lives to be ruined. ☹ I’m sorry, but if he can’t keep calm in a bad situation, then he has no business being a fucking cop. I don’t want someone to lose their head at the drop of a pin. I want someone who can remain calm and act quickly, without panicing. I would NOT feel safe with a police officer like that. **Garfield226** , how are stolen pancakes a threat to anyone’s safety? ---
**Author:** ![Garfield226](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Garfield226](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garfield226)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2006, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/73 "2006-02-28T23:40:22Z")
> [@sinjin](#): > > I’m quite sure this is not correct in most of the US. If you’ld like I will search for a cite. I’m sure it’s not correct for most of the US either, that’s why I said “some” jurisdictions. No cite needed. And **Guin** , read the thread. Honestly. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2006, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/74 "2006-02-28T23:51:24Z")
> [@Garfield226](#): > > So let’s break this down: > > Some kids intentionally steal food. At least one of them has been drinking and is in possesion of marijuana. So at least one committed three crimes on the same evening, and according to one of them, they intentionally stole the food. These details are certain. But they’re not bad kids. Heavens no. Well, as you say, none of this really has any bearing on the cop’s actions, except perhaps that he knew that the only offense they had committed was a dine-and-dash. But, for the record, if anyone feels it’s necessary, i’ll say that the kids sound like selfish little turds for doing that. It’s stupid and it’s theft, and in many places the waiter has to cough up the money if a customer runs. The uinderage drinking and the pot i don’t give a shit about—victimless crimes—although the drinking and driving is selfish and irresponsible. > [@Garfield226](#): > > Then the details are fuzzy. The cop gets in front of a vehicle that may or may not have been moving, the kids may or may not have tried to run him down, he may or may not have had room to dive out of the way, they may or may not have threatened him on the way to their vehicle, he may or may not have known they had been drinking or smoking pot, etc. and yet (and this is the part that’s strange to me), we’re SURE he did something wrong. He HAD to. He MUST have. We KNOW what the kids did wrong, and we know virtually NOTHING for certain about the “showdown” between the vehicle and the cop, but the cop is DEFINITELY at fault here. Well, to be honest, even if i give the cop every single benefit of the doubt, and accept everything he says about the incident, i’m still not willing to give him a pass. According to every single account, both by the kids and by the police and their representatives, the cop was toild that these kids had left without paying. In my opinion, skipping out on a $26 restaurant check does not justify the cop putting himself in a situation where deadly force might be required. Once he saw the kids were in the car, he should have called in a license plate and a description and let the on-duty officers take it from there. Now, if what the cop did was proper procedure, then it’s the procedure itself that i take issue with. But, in my opinion, even in the best case scenario the cop did something that i believe was unjustified. > [@Garfield226](#): > > Who is arguing that stealing food is justification for the death? The cop is saying his personal safety was threatened. As i said, the prudent action, especially for such a minor offense, would have been not to place himself in a position where that was even an issue. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2006, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/75 "2006-02-28T23:51:49Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > I didn’t call him a witness, **kidchameleon** did. I just pointed out that the source of all of our facts was not an “alleged unnamed witness”, but the official police spokesman, a source of considerable more weight than **kidchameleon** alluded to. No, no, no. Read the third story. Someone perported to be in the SUV said they were moving when the cop encountered them. The spokesman didn’t say whether the SUV was moving at the time the officer moved in front of it. ---
**Author:** ![Garfield226](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Garfield226](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garfield226)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2006, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/76 "2006-03-01T00:02:48Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Well, as you say, none of this really has any bearing on the cop’s actions, except perhaps that he knew that the only offense they had committed was a dine-and-dash. It’s possible (though again, mostly irrelevant) that he may have smelled alcohol or marijuana on one or more of them, or they were acting drunk or high. I was thinking though, that what might have been just an “Ok boys, go back inside and we’ll call your parents to come pay for your dinner” turns into an “Oh shit, I have some pot on me and I’m drunk, I better floor it and try to get away,” for the driver (once again, not that this shifts any blame…just a thought about what might have happened). > [@](#): > > Well, to be honest, even if i give the cop every single benefit of the doubt, and accept everything he says about the incident, i’m still not willing to give him a pass. > > According to every single account, both by the kids and by the police and their representatives, the cop was toild that these kids had left without paying. In my opinion, skipping out on a $26 restaurant check does not justify the cop putting himself in a situation where deadly force might be required. Once he saw the kids were in the car, he should have called in a license plate and a description and let the on-duty officers take it from there. > > Now, if what the cop did was proper procedure, then it’s the procedure itself that i take issue with. But, in my opinion, even in the best case scenario the cop did something that i believe was unjustified.As i said, the prudent action, especially for such a minor offense, would have been not to place himself in a position where that was even an issue. I’m not necessarily willing to give him a pass either. I’m just not willing to call for his badge or for jailtime when I know hardly any details about the actual confrontation, and I disagree with others who aren’t willing to offer him the same courtesy. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2006, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/77 "2006-03-01T00:14:28Z")
> [@Garfield226](#): > > It’s possible (though again, mostly irrelevant) that he may have smelled alcohol or marijuana on one or more of them, or they were acting drunk or high. I was thinking though, that what might have been just an “Ok boys, go back inside and we’ll call your parents to come pay for your dinner” turns into an “Oh shit, I have some pot on me and I’m drunk, I better floor it and try to get away,” for the driver (once again, not that this shifts any blame…just a thought about what might have happened). I may have missed something in my reading of the articles. Has anyone—on either side of this issue—yet claimed that the cop had any interaction with the kids _before_ they got in the car? Or is this pure speculation on your part? Because if he didn’t, there’s no way he could have smelled pot or alcohol on their breath. > [@Garfield226](#): > > I’m not necessarily willing to give him a pass either. I’m just not willing to call for his badge or for jailtime when I know hardly any details about the actual confrontation, and I disagree with others who aren’t willing to offer him the same courtesy. Fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2006, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/78 "2006-03-01T00:26:28Z")
I should add that, while i believe my position in this thread to be a pretty rational one, i’m not very well predisposed towards the police today, after reading the links and watching the video provided in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=360742). ---
**Author:** ![Garfield226](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Garfield226](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garfield226)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2006, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/79 "2006-03-01T00:26:35Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I may have missed something in my reading of the articles. Has anyone—on either side of this issue—yet claimed that the cop had any interaction with the kids _before_ they got in the car? Or is this pure speculation on your part? Pure speculation, plain and simple. Just another possibility that popped into my head. ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2006, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/80 "2006-03-01T00:57:24Z")
> [@Garfield226](#): > > So let’s break this down: > > Some kids intentionally steal food. At least one of them has been drinking and is in possesion of marijuana. So at least one committed three crimes on the same evening, and according to one of them, they intentionally stole the food. These details are certain. But they’re not bad kids. Heavens no. > > Then the details are fuzzy. The cop gets in front of a vehicle that may or may not have been moving, the kids may or may not have tried to run him down, he may or may not have had room to dive out of the way, they may or may not have threatened him on the way to their vehicle, he may or may not have known they had been drinking or smoking pot, etc. and yet (and this is the part that’s strange to me), we’re SURE he did something wrong. He HAD to. He MUST have. We KNOW what the kids did wrong, and we know virtually NOTHING for certain about the “showdown” between the vehicle and the cop, but the cop is DEFINITELY at fault here. > > Or, you know, we could be _reasonable_. Exactly. I’ll wait for more information before deciding, but _if_ the SUV went from a complete stop to gunning at the officer then I simply cannot fault the officer for shooting. Don’t want to die over a $26 ticket? Then don’t try to run down a cop over it. If the SUV was already moving, then this cop is a dumbass and frankly probably deserves jail time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478.md?page=5)