# Cop shoot, kills teen after he skips out on check at IHOP **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 28, 2006, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478 "2006-02-28T17:38:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Scruloose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e68b1a/32.png) [@Scruloose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scruloose)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2006, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/81 "2006-03-01T01:21:54Z")
> [@sinjin](#): > > But, I could be wrong; so lawyer people out there let me know. If someone steals a loaf of bread from me, I then put myself in what I believe is lethal danger to stop them from making off with my loaf of bread, am I then justified in killing them? As mentioned earlier in the thread, the original crime is somewhat irrelevant. If you steal a loaf of bread and are confronted by a police officer because of it, that police officer may/probably will use deadly force if you pose a threat to that officer’s life. For example, if you brandish a knife, threaten/gesture to use it and are in a position to do so (weapon, actions and opportunity), the police officer has no duty to retreat in this situation just because the original crime was shoplifting. At least that’s the case on a federal level - local jurisdictions may have specific guidance that counter that, but I’ll bet that’s not the norm. ---
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2006, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/82 "2006-03-01T01:43:29Z")
> [@Scruloose](#): > > As mentioned earlier in the thread, the original crime is somewhat irrelevant. If you steal a loaf of bread and are confronted by a police officer because of it, that police officer may/probably will use deadly force if you pose a threat to that officer’s life. For example, if you brandish a knife, threaten/gesture to use it and are in a position to do so (weapon, actions and opportunity), the police officer has no duty to retreat in this situation just because the original crime was shoplifting. > > At least that’s the case on a federal level - local jurisdictions may have specific guidance that counter that, but I’ll bet that’s not the norm. I have always (probably wrongly) been under the impression that I (a cit or rent a cop) couldn’t use deadly force if someone was stealing stuff from me but not physically threatening me. So, in reality; if I throw myself in front of escaping thieves, no matter how minor the crime, I do get to use deadly force against them? To take it to the extreme: Someone steals a stick of gum from me, the thief then jumps into an SUV and attempts a get-away, I jump in front of the SUV, I get to shoot them? Cool 🆒 YEE-HAA I live in the wild west!! ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2006, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/83 "2006-03-01T02:09:43Z")
> [@Garfield226](#): > > Who is arguing that stealing food is justification for the death? The cop is saying his personal safety was threatened. How is firing a weapon into a moving vehicle going to change that? ---
**Author:** ![Garfield226](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Garfield226](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garfield226)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2006, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/84 "2006-03-01T02:12:26Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > How is firing a weapon into a moving vehicle going to change that? That’s probably something you should take up with the policymakers. ---
**Author:** ![Scruloose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e68b1a/32.png) [@Scruloose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scruloose)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2006, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/85 "2006-03-01T02:13:22Z")
> [@sinjin](#): > > I have always (probably wrongly) been under the impression that I (a cit or rent a cop) couldn’t use deadly force if someone was stealing stuff from me but not physically threatening me. That’s correct. Who said otherwise? I certainly did not. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2006, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/86 "2006-03-01T02:22:52Z")
> [@Garfield226](#): > > That’s probably something you should take up with the policymakers. No, I’m taking it up with you. You are the one who is apparently defending the cop’s judgement, and I would like to know your opinion. Let’s take your worst case scenario: the yoots threatened him on the way to their vehicle, he knew they had been drinking and smoking pot, the vehicle was moving, the driver attempted to run him down, he couldn’t dive out of the way. How is emptying his gun into the vehicle going to reduce the threat? ---
**Author:** ![Garfield226](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Garfield226](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garfield226)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2006, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/87 "2006-03-01T02:40:58Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > No, I’m taking it up with you. You are the one who is apparently defending the cop’s judgement, and I would like to know your opinion. Actually, no. I’ve been saying all along that no one knows enough to call for the cop’s head, and that’s what I’m having the problem with. **I don’t know** if what the cop did was wrong, because I don’t know the situation completely enough to make that judgement. Neither does the OP, and neither do you. > [@](#): > > Let’s take your worst case scenario: the yoots threatened him on the way to their vehicle, he knew they had been drinking and smoking pot, the vehicle was moving, the driver attempted to run him down, he couldn’t dive out of the way. > > How is emptying his gun into the vehicle going to reduce the threat? Again, I don’t know. I haven’t been through the training cops have. I’d be inclined to think there’s a reason they have a policy of shooting when a scenario like this occurs, but I don’t know exactly what it is or how it works. In a scenario like this, AND if the police department has a policy of shooting, I’d say the fault lies with the department if anyone. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2006, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/88 "2006-03-01T02:47:45Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > Let’s take your worst case scenario: the yoots threatened him on the way to their vehicle, he knew they had been drinking and smoking pot, the vehicle was moving, the driver attempted to run him down, he couldn’t dive out of the way. > > How is emptying his gun into the vehicle going to reduce the threat? Well, high velocity lead is a good incentive to change one’s course. Given the choice, in your hypothetical, would you shoot or do nothing? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2006, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/89 "2006-03-01T02:48:24Z")
I don’t know any more about this than the rest of you, BUT there is something wrong when a stack of pancakes is worth a life. This bears formal investigation. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2006, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/90 "2006-03-01T02:52:22Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > Well, high velocity lead is a good incentive to change one’s course. > Given the choice, in your hypothetical, would you shoot or do nothing? How is shooting going to change the outcome? ---
**Author:** ![Slacker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6bbea6/32.png) [@Slacker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slacker)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2006, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/91 "2006-03-01T03:06:54Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > How is shooting going to change the outcome? Do you think most people drive straight and narrow when bullets start flying through their windshield? ---
**Author:** ![Floyd13](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e95f7d/32.png) [@Floyd13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Floyd13)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2006, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/92 "2006-03-01T03:16:18Z")
> [@Garfield226](#): > > So let’s break this down: > > Some kids intentionally steal food. At least one of them has been drinking and is in possesion of marijuana. So at least one committed three crimes on the same evening, and according to one of them, they intentionally stole the food. These details are certain. But they’re not bad kids. Heavens no. > > Then the details are fuzzy. The cop gets in front of a vehicle that may or may not have been moving, the kids may or may not have tried to run him down, he may or may not have had room to dive out of the way, they may or may not have threatened him on the way to their vehicle, he may or may not have known they had been drinking or smoking pot, etc. and yet (and this is the part that’s strange to me), we’re SURE he did something wrong. He HAD to. He MUST have. We KNOW what the kids did wrong, and we know virtually NOTHING for certain about the “showdown” between the vehicle and the cop, but the cop is DEFINITELY at fault here. > > Or, you know, we could be _reasonable_. Reasonable? Sure I think it’s reasonable to shoot someone in the FUCKING HEAD if they have pot and semi digested pancakes in their system. :dubious: But these evil kids tried to run that poor cop over you say. Wellllllllllll, he escalated the situation by running in front of their car and pulling a weapon for reasons unknown. Clearly pancakes couldn’t be that important to him? I mean doughnuts maybe, but pancakes? At IHOP? Stupid pig went rambo over grand theft pancakes and now he’s going to the slammer. Fuck him. Oh wait…I think Bubba will be taking care of that. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2006, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/93 "2006-03-01T03:56:58Z")
> [@Slacker](#): > > Do you think most people drive straight and narrow when bullets start flying through their windshield? I have no reason to believe a dead driver could do otherwise. Besides, we have already established in this worst case scenario that there wasn’t even room in this teeny, tiny parking lot for the cop to dodge out of the way, much less a full sized SUV; therefore, it had no choice but to go straight ahead. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2006, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/94 "2006-03-01T03:58:20Z")
> [@Slacker](#): > > Do you think most people drive straight and narrow when bullets start flying through their windshield? Problem with this is that if the cop wounds or kills the driver, the changing trajectory of the car is just as likely to veer towards the officer as away from him. Even if he doesn’t hit anything except the car, the panic of being shot at could simply cause the driver to duck and hit the gas, again with a decent possibility of heading straight for the guy on foot. But, as i’ve said a few times, i think that where the cop showed poorest judgement was putting himself in a dangerous situation (i.e., trying to stop the car, rather than calling in the license plate) when the only thing at stake was $26 worth of IHOP pancakes. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2006, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/95 "2006-03-01T04:02:38Z")
> [@nyctea scandiaca](#): > > I have no reason to believe the teens purposely “charged” the cop. They were likely just leaving, driving away, and the cop jumped in front of them. By all accounts, these were not bad kids. Sounds like this cop was on a big power trip and couldn’t handle the thought of kids getting away with free pancakes on his watch (as Mindshare said!) You have no reason to believe otherwise either. Also, they were bad kids, they were criminals. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2006, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/96 "2006-03-01T04:05:05Z")
Whatever crime the kids committed is completely irrelevant. The cop may have acted inappropriately, he may not have. As usual the SDMB, bastion of criminality and anti-authority that it is jumps on the anti-cop bandwagon before there’s even remotely enough evidence out there to say one way or another what truly _happened_ let alone talk about the justifications for what happened. We have to live in a society where there is law and order. I don’t care if the kids are stealing $50,000 or $26, I don’t want to live in a sociey where thieves think they have the right to steal stuff and just walk away, simply because trying to stop them might involve an ugly situation. The thieves caused this situation, not the cops. They could have refrained from being thieves and that stupid fool of a kid wouldn’t be dead. But they chose to be thieves, and criminals shouldn’t be allowed a pass just because stopping them is ugly. Criminals are a plague on society, and in all likelihood this officer, whether his life was in danger or not, performed a valuable service by shooting that criminal. ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2006, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/97 "2006-03-01T04:08:43Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > and in all likelihood this officer, whether his life was in danger or not, performed a valuable service by shooting that criminal. I feel that you may have crossed a line here. But on the other hand your concepts of Sharia Law intrigue me and I would like to subscribe… ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2006, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/98 "2006-03-01T04:14:21Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > Why the hell does an IHOP even need an armed guard? And how many disgusting chocolate chip flapjacks do they hafta sell to pay for that guy? This is the question that first occurred to me. What kind of pancake house needs an armed security guard? I’ve never heard of such a thing. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2006, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/99 "2006-03-01T04:15:49Z")
It sounds extreme to me too. Henceforth, all infractions no matter how minor, will be punishable by death. This includes littering, jaywalking, fudging on taxes, everything. The law is the law. All criminals must die. Uh huh. Yeah. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2006, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478/100 "2006-03-01T04:19:20Z")
It _would_ sound extreme—hell, it would sound pathological—coming from any poster who had previously demonstrated evidence of reason, humanity, and intelligence. But it came from **Martin Hyde**. 'Nuff said. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-shoot-kills-teen-after-he-skips-out-on-check-at-ihop/346478.md?page=6)