# Cop uses taser on handcuffed 9 yr old girl **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 28, 2004, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-uses-taser-on-handcuffed-9-yr-old-girl/247449 "2004-05-28T01:04:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![shijinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@shijinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shijinn)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2004, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-uses-taser-on-handcuffed-9-yr-old-girl/247449/101 "2004-05-29T06:54:19Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > I’ve certainly never heard of Rodney King-type incident involving a child here in the UK, where even CS spray is only a recent introduction. Does anyone know how such a situation would be (or has been) dealt with here, or in other locations where the cops are provided with less equipment? well? reading this thread you’ll think that cops have never been able to handle _handcuffed_ 9 yr old girls before… > [@alice\_in\_wonderland](#): > > … Humm - well, according to one of the new reports, the girl _WASN’T_ handcuffed when they zapped her. One officer was trying to put restraints on her and she was trying to get away. … she _ **was** _ handcuffed. they were trying to put restraints on her legs, and couldn’t quite manage it. > [@AHunter3](#): > > There are a lot of unanswered questions here that I’d want to have answered if I were investigating. Was the little girl in this state of mind generically, or only in response to being scooped up by cops to be taken back to the institution from which she escaped? > > How likely is it that the institution is a fucking hellhole from which any creature with consciousness would attempt to escape, and that the prospect of being returned involuntarily to it would elicit berserk behavior from any of its residents fortunate enough to get out? > > While I’m aware that 9 year olds don’t have the authority to decide when they will leave institutions, I’d sure as hell interview her to find out why she wanted out, and then poke around to see if she has a valid case (assuming she alleges mistreatment). > > And never mind “well if not a taser what _would_ you use to subdue a violently thrashing 9 year old who’s trying to kick out the windows”, I just plain have problems with “let’s force a human being back into the place she escaped from, and if she gets enraged or terrified at the prospect, we’ll subdue her somehow”. > > When you’re forced to be in a place you don’t want to be, and prevented from leaving, that’s a cage. I think cages are a piss-poor solution to crime and violence, and should always be suspected of harboring abuses and humiliations whenever there’s a conflict between the institution and a resident trying to get out. nobody acknowledged some of these above quotes so i thought i should just repeat them. i agree with **AHunter3**. more effort should be spent on getting a third party to verify this child’s predicament. we have a 9 year old girl repeatedly escaping from an institution, tasered and sedated. this bears investigation. ---
**Author:** ![Largo62](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@Largo62](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Largo62)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2004, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-uses-taser-on-handcuffed-9-yr-old-girl/247449/102 "2004-05-29T07:59:39Z")
> [@Ilsa\_Lund](#): > > Not that I disagree with your point, but this is an inaccurate comparison. Muscle capacity increases with the square of length, volume with the cube. That is why a flea can jump some ridiculous multiple of its body length and you can’t. The bobcat is proportionally much stronger than the girl. The bobcat is also a lean, well honed killing machine. Ashley Olsen isn’t. Not to be argumentative (even though that _is_ my nature 😉 ), I meant that given an adrenalin rush the child isn’t exactly a normally weak, demure 9-year-old. I don’t understand the squares and cubes like a normally smart person, except that I’ve always been a square and my head’s sort of cube like. I don’t think I _have_ muscle volume. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2004, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-uses-taser-on-handcuffed-9-yr-old-girl/247449/103 "2004-05-29T13:32:45Z")
> [@shijinn](#): > > well? > > nobody acknowledged some of these above quotes so i thought i should just repeat them. > > i agree with **AHunter3**. more effort should be spent on getting a third party to verify this child’s predicament. we have a 9 year old girl repeatedly escaping from an institution, tasered and sedated. this bears investigation. Nobody acknowledged these questions because while they may be good or debateable points, they are immaterial to the subject of this thread, the force police used to subdue this one girl. Frankly, the arguement “The patient dosen’t like it in the asylum” never cut much ice with me, I am sure the prisoner dosen’t like it much in the jail, but I’m not gonna cut them all lose for that reason. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2004, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-uses-taser-on-handcuffed-9-yr-old-girl/247449/104 "2004-05-29T13:42:11Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Frankly, the arguement “The patient dosen’t like it in the asylum” never cut much ice with me, I am sure the prisoner dosen’t like it much in the jail, but I’m not gonna cut them all lose for that reason. You really think that we should treat psychiatric patients as if they were criminals? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![TeaElle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@TeaElle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TeaElle)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2004, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-uses-taser-on-handcuffed-9-yr-old-girl/247449/105 "2004-05-29T13:46:23Z")
This girl doesn’t just dislike the home where she is remanded, she also doesn’t like people much. > [@Tucson Citizen Newspaper Online](#): > > “We were advised (girl’s name) takes medication and had assaulted staff and fellow students,” the report said. She’s medicated and yet, she assaults the adults who are trying to help her, and the other kids at the home. > [@Also from the newspaper story](#): > > Storie said he is aware of two past incidents the girl had with South Tucson police. In my experience, people who work in residential treatment facilities for children are loathe to call the police. They’re social services folks, they really hate the idea of their charges getting tied up in the criminal justice system. That’s what they’re working to avoid. > [@](#): > > “There’s clearly a pattern showing this girl fights with all of her might every time that police try to assist in bringing her back to the school.” She doesn’t like the place. she doesn’t want to be there. But why is she there? Because even with medication, she’s out of control. She needs to be in a controlled environment with people who can help treat her. And frankly, given her problems and her age, she’s not capable of deciding for herself whether or not she wants to be in the home, or much else. > [@](#): > > He also said, “She was about to injure herself or those around her.” Fairly obvious problem in such a situation. > [@](#): > > The Arizona Children’s Home did not lodge a complaint about the Taser use. These folks are charged with this girl’s care. If some harm came to her, they’d be sued out the wazoo. Yet they don’t see that there was any harm from what happened sufficient enough to even make a complaint. Either they’re complete incompetents who can’t even manage a CYA complaint for the record or there really wasn’t sufficient evidence that the situation was harmful to the girl. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2004, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-uses-taser-on-handcuffed-9-yr-old-girl/247449/106 "2004-05-29T13:55:07Z")
> [@TeaElle](#): > > Yet they don’t see that there was any harm from what happened sufficient enough to even make a complaint. Either they’re complete incompetents who can’t even manage a CYA complaint for the record or there really wasn’t sufficient evidence that the situation was harmful to the girl. OR they place greater importance in the privacy and treatment of the girl, both of which could be jepardised by acrimonious legal proceedings? OR they want to keep on good terms with the local police at all costs? ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2004, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-uses-taser-on-handcuffed-9-yr-old-girl/247449/107 "2004-05-29T16:31:50Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > You really think that we should treat psychiatric patients as if they were criminals? :rolleyes: You seem to have a real talent for replying to what people are not saying. Would you care to point out exactly where I said psychiatric patients should be treated like criminals? ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2004, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-uses-taser-on-handcuffed-9-yr-old-girl/247449/108 "2004-05-29T17:02:34Z")
There is also a difference between “This person should be given free rein to walk the streets and/or bite and hurl rocks at the local citizens without interference” and “Well, since we’ve decided we need to address her tendency to be violent, there must be nothing wrong going on the locked ward from which she keeps escaping”. Prisoners may belong in the prisons to which they were sentenced (although I will reiterate my opinion that cages make a piss-poor response to the problem), but we still don’t say “Yeah, it’s fine if prisoners get humilated, punched out, tortured, and otherwise abused in prison, 'cuz they’re prisoners”. (Well, most of us don’t). And tendency to violence or no, this is still a 9 year old girl we’re talking about, not a convicted extortionist or something. Maybe the institution is a well-run place staffed with compassionate caring people who restrain their residents only when absolutely necessary, but I’d sure as hell do an investigation. Face it, institutions that are vested with coercive powers just tend to accumulate abuses. Power corrupts. If she hates being in the place that strongly, it may just be because she’s an unreasonable nutcase, but IMHO and experience it’s more likely that she hates it for a damn good reason. And we owe it to her as a member of our species to see what it is that we’re returning her to over her violent and vehement objections. ---
**Author:** ![Garfield226](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Garfield226](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garfield226)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2004, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-uses-taser-on-handcuffed-9-yr-old-girl/247449/109 "2004-05-29T17:26:37Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > There is also a difference between “This person should be given free rein to walk the streets and/or bite and hurl rocks at the local citizens without interference” and “Well, since we’ve decided we need to address her tendency to be violent, there must be nothing wrong going on the locked ward from which she keeps escaping”. > > Prisoners may belong in the prisons to which they were sentenced (although I will reiterate my opinion that cages make a piss-poor response to the problem), but we still don’t say “Yeah, it’s fine if prisoners get humilated, punched out, tortured, and otherwise abused in prison, 'cuz they’re prisoners”. (Well, most of us don’t). > > And tendency to violence or no, this is still a 9 year old girl we’re talking about, not a convicted extortionist or something. Maybe the institution is a well-run place staffed with compassionate caring people who restrain their residents only when absolutely necessary, but I’d sure as hell do an investigation. Face it, institutions that are vested with coercive powers just tend to accumulate abuses. Power corrupts. If she hates being in the place that strongly, it may just be because she’s an unreasonable nutcase, but IMHO and experience it’s more likely that she hates it for a damn good reason. And we owe it to her as a member of our species to see what it is that we’re returning her to over her violent and vehement objections. I’m pretty sure no one is arguing with you about this. Know why? Read the title of the thread. Makes no difference if the kid is President Bush’s illegitimate daughter, an illegal alien, or Mary Sue Bob Joe. Reeder (and others) expressed outrage that cops used a taser on a 9 year old girl. Not that she was being returned to her institution, not that they were mistreating her there, not anything else. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2004, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-uses-taser-on-handcuffed-9-yr-old-girl/247449/110 "2004-05-29T17:49:51Z")
**AHunter3** I agree with you that mental health facilities need a lot more inspection and oversight than they currently have. But without knowing the facts, the facility she ran from could be a snakepit run by sadistic pedophiliacs, or it could be paradise with padded walls. Back To The OP I think the cop behaved reasonably. I’ve been on meds and in therapy since about the second grade. The proper thing to do with the girl was to put her in five-point restraint (Sarah Connor is put in 5-point in T2), big leather bonds on the wrists, ankles, and the neck or waist on top of a well-padded bed, or to inject her with a heavy sedative. The officer didn’t happen to have a sedative. He asked staff whether a taser would be safe, and they told him it would be. It’s also very possible that the officer was also concerned for the girl’s saftey. Five-point restraint is designed not just to restrain somebody, but to prevent them from injuring themselves. The girl was behaving in a manner likely to fracture or dislocate something. ---
**Author:** ![TeaElle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@TeaElle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TeaElle)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2004, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-uses-taser-on-handcuffed-9-yr-old-girl/247449/111 "2004-05-29T18:40:11Z")
[This is the website of the organization that runs the facility that the girl ran away from](http://www.arizonaschildren.org/). They’ve been in existence since 1912 and seem to run the gamut of social and psychological/psychiatric services. ---
**Author:** ![shijinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@shijinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shijinn)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2004, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-uses-taser-on-handcuffed-9-yr-old-girl/247449/112 "2004-05-29T18:43:01Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > … the force police used to subdue this one girl. … so what _was_ the force used to handle a situation like this? a tuna upside of the head? nobody knows? that might imply that the force used was not remarkable enough as to be news worthy, so why can’t that same force be used instead of a taser? > [@Garfield226](#): > > … not that they were mistreating her there, not anything else. … so we’re concerned with the way the girl is handled and not the girl herself, mmhmm. on preview: i’m not sure why i feel so uncomfortable with the use of a taser, it didn’t even knock her unconscious or anything, and the police might have spared her some inevitable bruises or whatever… ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2004, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-uses-taser-on-handcuffed-9-yr-old-girl/247449/113 "2004-05-29T18:44:11Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > You seem to have a real talent for replying to what people are not saying. Would you care to point out exactly where I said psychiatric patients should be treated like criminals? Here: ‘Frankly, the arguement “The patient dosen’t like it in the asylum” never cut much ice with me, I am sure the prisoner dosen’t like it much in the jail, but I’m not gonna cut them all lose for that reason’ Why else were you drawing a direct comparison between psychiatric detention and jail? ---
**Author:** ![Garfield226](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Garfield226](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garfield226)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2004, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-uses-taser-on-handcuffed-9-yr-old-girl/247449/114 "2004-05-29T18:58:23Z")
> [@shijinn](#): > > so we’re concerned with the way the girl is handled and not the girl herself, mmhmm. Well, you can reread the OP if you want, but I mostly got moral outrage that these “pigs” would use a Taser on a nine year old girl. Hell, read **Reeder’s** second post: > [@](#): > > Idiot. > > The rant is about tasering a handcuffed 9 year old. > > You can’t read? ---
**Author:** ![shijinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@shijinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shijinn)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2004, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-uses-taser-on-handcuffed-9-yr-old-girl/247449/115 "2004-05-29T19:07:49Z")
yes, and i’m suggesting part of that moral outrage might be better directed elsewhere. there is no need to use **Reeder’s** words out of context for my sake. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2004, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-uses-taser-on-handcuffed-9-yr-old-girl/247449/116 "2004-05-30T01:46:21Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Here: ‘Frankly, the arguement “The patient dosen’t like it in the asylum” never cut much ice with me, I am sure the prisoner dosen’t like it much in the jail, but I’m not gonna cut them all lose for that reason’ > > Why else were you drawing a direct comparison between psychiatric detention and jail? Now you’re being deliberately obtuse. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2004, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-uses-taser-on-handcuffed-9-yr-old-girl/247449/117 "2004-05-30T02:08:47Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > > [@GorillaMan](#): > > > > Here: ‘Frankly, the arguement “The patient dosen’t like it in the asylum” never cut much ice with me, I am sure the prisoner dosen’t like it much in the jail, but I’m not gonna cut them all lose for that reason’ > > > > Why else were you drawing a direct comparison between psychiatric detention and jail? > > Now you’re being deliberately obtuse. I agree with spooje, but you have given me no reason not to humor you with an explanation, so here goes: A Psychiatric hospital and a jail are both place that people are forced to go that they may not want to be in. See? No comparison between the reasons for confinement, conditions and treatment received at the hospital and at the jail, just their nature as places people may be confined involuntarily. Isn’t that simple? ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2004, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-uses-taser-on-handcuffed-9-yr-old-girl/247449/118 "2004-05-30T03:06:24Z")
Actually, involuntary psychiatric inmates are quite often treated as if they were prisoners, as people who had deliberately done something wrong and were in the bin as a consequence of that, and deserve rebuke and contempt. More than a few psychiatric treatments are doled out as behavioral disincentives (i.e., as punishment for behaving in ways the staff doesn’t like, as differentiated from treatment for an underlying condition believed to be causing the behavior as a clinical symptom). If (as I’ve said) cages are a piss-poor modality for addressing criminality, they are an even worse venue in which to purport to provide therapy. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2004, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-uses-taser-on-handcuffed-9-yr-old-girl/247449/119 "2004-05-30T03:35:42Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > If (as I’ve said) cages are a piss-poor modality for addressing criminality, they are an even worse venue in which to purport to provide therapy. You’re right, but addressing criminality and providing therapy are not the sole issues. Public safety is also of major importance, and if this child is likely to go around assaulting people she doesn’t like, then those people deserve protection, even if it means the girl has to be confined. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2004, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-uses-taser-on-handcuffed-9-yr-old-girl/247449/120 "2004-05-30T03:45:37Z")
All of which is still completely aside from the point of this thread. It sounds like it might make a good GD thread if you want to start it AHunter3. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-uses-taser-on-handcuffed-9-yr-old-girl/247449.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cop-uses-taser-on-handcuffed-9-yr-old-girl/247449.md?page=7)